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Tim Peters – Dispelling Information Asymmetry

tim-one.github.io

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Re: Tim Peters – Dispelling Information Asymmetry

#11
post #4

Some previous related discussions on this: * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41212788 ["The Shameful Defenestration of Tim" by Chris McDonough] * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41515766 ["A Mess in the Python Community", lwn.net] * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41385546 ["A post by Guido van Rossum removed for violating Python community guidelines"] * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41314393 ["…

My main source of information about this specific kerfuffle is from Chris McDonough's response, which seems pretty compelling to me.

Can anyone point me to a detailed response from the other side? (Beyond their initial announcement, I mean.)

Experience tells me to hear both sides of a story before buying a pitchfork.

Re: Tim Peters – Dispelling Information Asymmetry

#12
post #6

For those who don't know the name, Tim Peters is the author of "The Zen of Python". He is the one who uniquely captured was Python is all about with this inspirational little poem: The Zen of Python, by Tim Peters Beautiful is better than ugly. Explicit is better than implicit. Simple is better than complex. Complex is better than complicated. Flat is better than nested. Sparse is better than dense. Readability count…

The praise for Mr. Peters means that much more coming from you. Don't sell yourself short; your PyCon lectures have done an immense service along the same lines of "capturing what Python is all about", and Python would feel like a very different language without functional-programming builtins like `any` and `all`, not to mention the `itertools` standard library (among the many other contributions you list in your profile).

Re: Tim Peters – Dispelling Information Asymmetry

#13
post #4

Some previous related discussions on this: * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41212788 ["The Shameful Defenestration of Tim" by Chris McDonough] * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41515766 ["A Mess in the Python Community", lwn.net] * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41385546 ["A post by Guido van Rossum removed for violating Python community guidelines"] * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41314393 ["…

My main source of information about this specific kerfuffle is from Chris McDonough's response, which seems pretty compelling to me. Can anyone point me to a detailed response from the other side? (Beyond their initial announcement, I mean.) Experience tells me to hear both sides of a story before buying a pitchfork.

Aside from what's publicly visible on the Discourse forum in the PSF and Committers sections (https://discuss.python.org/c/python-software-foundation/9 and https://discuss.python.org/c/committers/5 respectively) I'm not aware of any formal statements, unless perhaps you count Steering Council updates (https://github.com/python/steering-council). The PSF runs a blog at https://pyfound.blogspot.com/, but I see nothing substantial there there isn't entirely redundant (e.g. a copy-paste of the "Python’s Supportive and Welcoming Environment is Tightly Coupled to Its Progress" letter).

I have seen commentary by a few of them on social media - mostly, per my impression, vague expressions of annoyance at the stress supposedly caused by Code of Conduct enforcement (note that in the post announcing my ban, Mr. Langa disclosed an unusually high recent volume of forum flags: approximately one per moderator per day) and at people having opinions differing from their own.

Edit: since I was looking things up to assemble the above links - I notice that Ethan Furman has made a further complaint about Mr. Peters' treatment in absentia: https://discuss.python.org/t/soliciting-feedback-from-a-susp...

Re: Tim Peters – Dispelling Information Asymmetry

#14

I think one of the hardest problems in community moderation is finding good moderators. A moderator's job description involves outlining fault in other people's words and occasionally punishing them for it. That sort of thing is tedious to most people, but thrilling to some very emotionally unhealthy ones. Few people who want the job can be trusted with the power. I fear the python steering council has been lost to p…

The issue is not that wannabe moderators and "leaders" are merely immature. They are cunning activists and opportunists. The right approach is to throw out anyone who insists on co-opting an open software project to advance goals that are not directly related to the project's purpose. This is especially obvious when they start trying to censor or ban people over disagreements and opinions outside the scope of the project.

Re: Tim Peters – Dispelling Information Asymmetry

#15

I think one of the hardest problems in community moderation is finding good moderators. A moderator's job description involves outlining fault in other people's words and occasionally punishing them for it. That sort of thing is tedious to most people, but thrilling to some very emotionally unhealthy ones. Few people who want the job can be trusted with the power. I fear the python steering council has been lost to p…

Fortunately, the Steering Council at least consists of annually re-elected members.

The same can't be said for the Code of Conduct Work Group, or most other Work Groups, or for Discourse forum moderators.

I actually can't find any documentation anywhere of the election process for the PSF Board of Directors, or anything about how Officers are selected. Not on psf.python.org, not on the PSF blog, not on Mr. Willamson's blog (as a former board member whose blog was recently shared on HN); not as a PEP (that only covers the Steering Council). All I know is that a few new members are elected annually, but not how long their terms are.

(But I can easily find a diversity statement.)

Re: Tim Peters – Dispelling Information Asymmetry

#16
Ok I wrote a long thing but answered all my questions myself. There's a whole chorus of people backing Mr. Peters up in these comments, so I thought it would be interesting to share the other side from Ms. Wages, the current Python Czar/Queen/Big Boss. The defenses from her colleagues in the actual ban thread on the specifics of the case are... not flattering, I'd say.

BTW, is it weird to anyone else that Microsoft was allowed to hire the person who runs Python as a "Python Community Advocate" only a month after they took office...? Seems like something that the web working groups would cry foul over; maybe Python isn't to that point yet, b/c there hasn't been a Python browser war? Anyway;

  Membership is by far, to me, the most important work group among the bunch. From this past year, I've seen a disconnect between the community having valid concerns and getting them across to the "powers that be" to have them enacted. From the way I hear people talk about the PSF board, it feels like people see the board as a group of people far away from the membership that may not understand what everyone else wants in their community-driven organization. For what it's worth, these are common growing pains of any organization going from medium to large, or small to medium (depending on your vantage the PSF could be either; but regardless is that we are growing along with the language).

  I can say confidently that is not the case that we are far away from the desires of the membership. We are boots on the ground organizers who love the community and challenge our own beliefs constantly in our meetings. Clearly, we're not sharing the effort we take to learn about our membership and how much we debate in our meetings to reach our goal of voting consensus in our board resolutions; a goal we reach more often than not.

  Without a solid conversation with our membership, we are reliant upon the urgency and rhetoric to get across a point, which leaves a lot to be desired to say the least. And the membership is left inferring our opinions from a one-line resolution (although our communications team on staff are helping with this). In points where the membership on opposite sides would otherwise agree, we lose the plot with hyperbole, metaphors and analogies. The last thing I will do is tone police, period. The goal is to make it easier to communicate between the board, staff and membership so we don't feel the need to use strong rhetoric. I have faith that if other methods to communicate are felt to be abundantly available and effective, they will be employed before we get to the harsh and derisive communications. 
https://dawnwages.info/bajoran-engineer/2024/08/09/2024-pyth...

:shrug: That clearly reads as good faith and well reasoned to me, so I have faith it'll all get sorted -- I'm sure their office hours on the 8th this month will be quite lively! Though I'm not sure they'll ever get Mr. Peters back fully. Some of these moderating decisions have been ridiculous, namely banning someone for life for "questioning moderating decisions" and banning this fella for 3 months (?) when "there was no singular incident or sentence that comprised an offense" (??), but the post above gives me hope for a course correct there, and hope for the org in general.

TIL they hand out $600K+ annually for Python development, that's incredible! Maybe Microsoft should kick in a mil or two...

ETA: this is the fabled code of conduct, which I think is objectively reasonable. That is, of course, until you get to the last forbidden behavior:

  Other conduct that is inappropriate for a professional audience including people of many different backgrounds
https://policies.python.org/python.org/code-of-conduct/ I appreciate the attempt to cover their bases, but in an org that is seemingly so proud of their democratic processes, that's a classic opening for judicial overreach.

Re: Tim Peters – Dispelling Information Asymmetry

#17
post #15

I think one of the hardest problems in community moderation is finding good moderators. A moderator's job description involves outlining fault in other people's words and occasionally punishing them for it. That sort of thing is tedious to most people, but thrilling to some very emotionally unhealthy ones. Few people who want the job can be trusted with the power. I fear the python steering council has been lost to p…

Fortunately, the Steering Council at least consists of annually re-elected members. The same can't be said for the Code of Conduct Work Group, or most other Work Groups, or for Discourse forum moderators. I actually can't find any documentation anywhere of the election process for the PSF Board of Directors, or anything about how Officers are selected. Not on psf.python.org, not on the PSF blog, not on Mr. Willamson'…

That is weird. They have a list of the results (https://www.python.org/nominations/elections/), lists of boards going back a few years (https://www.python.org/psf/board/), but no details. Presumably they post their official Bylaws/founding documents somewhere that they filed with the state, and it'd be in there?

FWIW diversity is important regardless of their website quality. Perfection is the enemy of improvement, IMHO.

Re: Tim Peters – Dispelling Information Asymmetry

#18
post #16

Ok I wrote a long thing but answered all my questions myself. There's a whole chorus of people backing Mr. Peters up in these comments, so I thought it would be interesting to share the other side from Ms. Wages, the current Python Czar/Queen/Big Boss. The defenses from her colleagues in the actual ban thread on the specifics of the case are... not flattering, I'd say. BTW, is it weird to anyone else that Microsoft w…

> so I thought it would be interesting to share the other side from Ms. Wages, the current Python Czar/Queen/Big Boss.

Granted, Ms. Wages is the chair. But I would have said that Deb Nicholson[0] - as secretary[1], executive director[1], board member[1], (presumably paid[2]) staff member[3], member of three out of four currently active board committees[1], and Code of Conduct Work Group member[4] - is more influential in these matters.

> That clearly reads as good faith and well reasoned to me,

It doesn't seem to me that it's particularly relevant to Mr. Peters' case - except perhaps the "The last thing I will do is tone police, period." part, which... I would say is definitely not in agreement with the publicly available evidence.

>TIL they hand out $600K+ annually for Python development, that's incredible!

"They" who? Do you mean the budget for grants? A large fraction of that appears to be travel grants so that underprivileged/international guests can attend PyCon.

[0]: https://x.com/baconandcoconut

[1]: https://www.python.org/psf/board/

[2]: https://simonwillison.net/2024/Sep/18/board-of-the-python-so...

[3]: https://www.python.org/psf/records/staff/

[4]: https://www.python.org/psf/workgroups/#code-of-conduct-work-...

Re: Tim Peters – Dispelling Information Asymmetry

#19
post #18
post #16

Ok I wrote a long thing but answered all my questions myself. There's a whole chorus of people backing Mr. Peters up in these comments, so I thought it would be interesting to share the other side from Ms. Wages, the current Python Czar/Queen/Big Boss. The defenses from her colleagues in the actual ban thread on the specifics of the case are... not flattering, I'd say. BTW, is it weird to anyone else that Microsoft w…

> so I thought it would be interesting to share the other side from Ms. Wages, the current Python Czar/Queen/Big Boss. Granted, Ms. Wages is the chair. But I would have said that Deb Nicholson[0] - as secretary[1], executive director[1], board member[1], (presumably paid[2]) staff member[3], member of three out of four currently active board committees[1], and Code of Conduct Work Group member[4] - is more influentia…

Thanks for the correction and expertise! Sometimes I think I've got a handle on companies, and then I see one with a director and a president and they're both on the board but the director fills two seats somehow, even though they should definitely have none. Anyway, I'm sure she's involved in all of this now, if she wasn't before!

I absolutely agree that it's not necessarily directly relevant, but I feel like the undercurrent is clear: people are mad that Python leadership has caught The Woke Mind Virus(tm), and is out of touch. This all seems to have bubbled forth from that, and as is predictable for political discussions on the internet, it's gotten heated. She also shouts out "Strive for healthy debate and consensus" as her top priority as chair in the achievements PDF linked by Simon, which seems like a strong sign that she's trying to improve all this.

Re:grants, yeah I wonder what the final breakdown is, I can't really find it. They do have "Developers in Residence" now, which is presumably old news to you/y'all but awfully cool to me. The sooner we end this era of "the entire world runs on the good will of bored nerds volunteering their time", the better.

Re: Tim Peters – Dispelling Information Asymmetry

#20
post #19
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> so I thought it would be interesting to share the other side from Ms. Wages, the current Python Czar/Queen/Big Boss. Granted, Ms. Wages is the chair. But I would have said that Deb Nicholson[0] - as secretary[1], executive director[1], board member[1], (presumably paid[2]) staff member[3], member of three out of four currently active board committees[1], and Code of Conduct Work Group member[4] - is more influentia…

Thanks for the correction and expertise! Sometimes I think I've got a handle on companies, and then I see one with a director and a president and they're both on the board but the director fills two seats somehow, even though they should definitely have none. Anyway, I'm sure she's involved in all of this now, if she wasn't before! I absolutely agree that it's not necessarily directly relevant, but I feel like the un…

>They do have "Developers in Residence" now

Yes - three of them, out of dozens of core developers, selected by a process I can't discern. Of course, right now the money simply isn't there to compensate everyone appropriately. (But one wonders why the Steering Council apparently suddenly requires a "Communications Liaison".)

>The sooner we end this era of "the entire world runs on the good will of bored nerds volunteering their time", the better.

Python is nowhere near the only project with this problem. If you appreciate the fact that your computer can properly display text in non-European languages, consider offering some support to Behdad Esfahbod, main developer of Harfbuzz (https://github.com/harfbuzz/harfbuzz).

As far as I can tell, Linux and Mozilla are the only two open-source organizations that have any significant revenue behind them. Most are probably even worse off than Python.

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