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Sanskrit As A Language Of Science

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Re: Sanskrit As A Language Of Science

#11

There are several very controversial ideas here about the prehistory and history of India. And the history of India is such a controversial subject within India that many thoughtful writers who live in India pass up the opportunity to dig into the sources and write thorough histories of their own country. http://www.historytoday.com/mihir-bose/india%E2%80%99s-missi... Readers from India who read widely are probably a…

It would be nice if you could expand on what the actual controversies are.

The Indus Valley Civilization is the indigenous civilization in the region of India, Pakistan, and parts of Afghanistan and Iran. It traded with Ancient Egypt, Sumeria, Greece, and Rome. For its time, it was the largest ancient civilization, and it was highly impressive (they had uniform brick buildings, perpendicular grid streets, covered sewers, a base-10 system of standardized weights, etc. : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indus_Valley_Civilization#Matur...) The IVC collapsed before Greece and Rome reached their peaks, but in the absence of more research, we can only surmise its legacy (e.g., Indian sarees, white waistcloths and sandals may have been mimicked as togas). I think more research needs to be done to flesh out all of the loose ends of inquiry, and lots of interesting research is happening currently. I'm sure more facts will continue to emerge about the IVC that shift our understanding of the world's history.

The prevailing theory is that the IVC bequeathed culture (religion, customs, knowledge, architecture, etc.) to all parts of the region. It is believed that the IVC inhabitants spread east and southwards to fill all parts of India. The IVC collapsed (1900 BCE), and around 1000 years afterwards (1000 BCE), a branch of proto-Indo European language speakers is believed to have moved south from the Caucuses into Iran/India. The language they spoke (Sanskrit) is believed to have taken on influences by the indigenous language taken hold in the northern parts of India, but considering their much fewer numbers and nomadic lifestyle at the time of their arrival, their genetic contribution is thought to be minimal. After the British colonial scholar Robert Caldwell, a scholar in Sanskrit, noticed the difference between the languages of north India (Indo-European > Sanskrit derived) and southern India (a distinct language family, of which Tamil has the least influence of Sanskrit), he used the term "Aryan" to describe the northern languages and "Dravidian" to describe the southern languages. (side note: Caldwell was opposed to and upset with attempts by people to project the terms Aryan and Dravidian for the purposes of racism and hegemony; he personally believed in the opposite) It is also believed that at the time of arrival of the Sanskrit speakers to India from the north, the existing indigenous culture (i.e., of the people from IVC) heavily influenced that of the arriving people. Among the first writings in Sanskrit (Veda scriptures), the earliest shows the most indigenous influence (e.g., water-based imagery), and the later Veda writings show a diminishing influence towards a more Sanskritic one (e.g., fire-based imagery). In light of all of this, scholars say that pretty much the only evidence we have that "Aryans", as a distinct group, existed is their language.

It is widely believed that the language of the IVC is most closely related to Dravidian languages, and the best attempts to decipher their writing comes from using Tamil as the starting point. An interesting, recent paper from last year puts forward a very compelling advancement in interpreting the script, and in the process, it further fleshes out the relationship between IVC, the culture of Indian peoples, Sanskrit writings and Dravidian languages:

http://harappa.drupalgardens.com/content/indus-fish-swam-gre...

Because of Caldwell's linguistic analysis and the convenient role it played in political maneuvering for accruing power in British colonial India (by the British, and by people in India regionally and caste-wise), the division along "Aryan"/"Dravidian" lines became seen as a racial one. (If there is a difference genetically today, it may be from the occasional invasion by empires from the Middle East in the north of India over the millennia, from which the south was largely insulated by the Deccan Plateau). As the idea of this racial divide survives while India is now divided into states based on language (and the southern states are a minority), and given the roughly 90/10 split of Hindus and Muslims, chauvinism along religious, geographic, and linguistic lines has gradually coalesced. It's to the point where some Indians want to portray the IVC as Sanskritic/Aryan (and Sanskrit-speakers as the originators of Hinduism because the oldest known Hindu writings are in Sanskrit), even if they have to blatantly distort facts: http://safarmer.com/frontline/horseplay.pdf But more commonly, you'll find resistance among such people from accepting a proto-Dravidian language hypothesis of the IVC in favor of interpreting the IVC in a Sanskritic light: http://www.sanskrit.org/www/Hindu%20Primer/induscivilization...

Re: Sanskrit As A Language Of Science

#12
From my father (who can read/write Sanskrit):

I'll add that at the University of Chicago, someone noted that modern linguistics really had its launch when German philologists in the 19th century encountered Sanskrit and the Sanskrit grammarians. Not just in grammar itself, but in phonemics as well.

Wikipedia appears to verify in part:

"This body of work became known in 19th century Europe, where it influenced modern linguistics initially through Franz Bopp, who mainly looked at Pāṇini [most famous Sanskrit grammarian]. Subsequently, a wider body of work influenced Sanskrit scholars such as Ferdinand de Saussure, Leonard Bloomfield, and Roman Jakobson. Frits Staal discussed the possible European impact of Indian ideas on language. After outlining the various aspects of the contact, Staal posits the theory that the idea of formal rules in language, first proposed by de Saussure in 1894, and finally developed by Chomsky in 1957, based on which formal rules were also introduced in computational languages, may indeed lie in the European exposure to the formal rules of Paninian grammar. In particular, de Saussure, who lectured on Sanskrit for three decades, may have been influenced by Pāṇini and Bhartrihari; his idea of the unity of signifier-signified in the sign is somewhat similar to the notion of Sphoṭa. More importantly, the very idea that formal rules can be applied to areas outside of logic or mathematics, may itself have been catalyzed by Europe's contact with the work of Sanskrit grammarians." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_linguistics#India

Re: Sanskrit As A Language Of Science

#14
post #10

There are several very controversial ideas here about the prehistory and history of India. And the history of India is such a controversial subject within India that many thoughtful writers who live in India pass up the opportunity to dig into the sources and write thorough histories of their own country. http://www.historytoday.com/mihir-bose/india%E2%80%99s-missi... Readers from India who read widely are probably a…

It often surprises me that in discussions of Indian History (including that article by Mihir Bose that you site), one of the best historians of ancient India is conveniently forgotten. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romila_Thapar

Also, for anyone interested in an academic, objective, inclusive and yet thoroughly fascinating summary of Indian history, I highly recommend "India: A History" by John Keay (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Keay)

Re: Sanskrit As A Language Of Science

#16
post #9

A very interesting discussion, I think, even if its promoting some strange ideas. But I don't think enough was done to explain the success of English as the dominant scientific language, as a basis for comparison. The subtext is that it is due to various geopolitical factors, which is likely not far from the truth. But I think one important feature of scientific English (I am a scientist, and so often write in this d…

Agreed; it has just happened -- in a rapid idea-exchange environment science just works way better using a common language, regardless how hard or illogical it is; and English was on a right place and time (German and French used to have their chance, but they lost due to WW2).

Re: Sanskrit As A Language Of Science

#17
Disclaimer: My mother tongue is Tamil(one of those dravidian language). Two points turned me off/ stopped me from reading the article. 1. He mentions that "it is believed now that Dravidians could have come from pakistan/afghanistan. This was a surprise news to me and after reading through that Brahui(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahui_people#Origins) wikipedia article, i realized it is one of the 3 leading theories.

2. Direct Quote "A language was created by the great grammarian Panini, namely Classical Sanskrit, which enabled scientific ideas to be expressed with great precision, logic and elegance. Science requires precision. "

This is when i stopped reading. Not because i disagree with sanskrit having provided precision so many years ago(i have no clue). But whatever sparse sanskrit i picked up living in Allahabad, India is very imprecise for modern science.

Re: Sanskrit As A Language Of Science

#18
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be nice if you could expand on what the actual controversies are.

At a meta level, he's saying that Sanskrit has a legitimate claim of Universalism. The linked speech states that "the foundation of India culture is based on the Sanskrit language." If you speak an Indian language that is not descended from Sanskrit, you might disagree with that statement! India is a very diverse country with many languages and complicated ethnic politics. English would be a convenient national langu…

> (By contrast, Latin and Ancient Greek aren't things anyone argues about in Europe today.)

Not that true. There is a growing political problem with the use of English in EU, also at the technical level (XML element names, for examples). At the same time, using any of the other national languages is a no-go. One of the proposed solutions is to use Latin for technical details and leave national languages for the documentation and other user-facing documents.

An example of Latin-as-neutral-language is LexDania, an old Danish XML format for laws; in LexDania you have _arca_, not container, _linea_, not paragraph.

Re: Sanskrit As A Language Of Science

#19

Ah, the glorification of your old, dead language. This reads very much like an Oxford don extolling the virtues of Latin or Ancient Greek. Many of his claims are sheer nonsense, such as his digression on the ordering of alphabets. Sanskrit didn't use a fixed alphabet until the 19th century, and there are certainly other writing systems with collation orders just as sensible. Everyone likes to claim that their old sop…

It resurrected, so it seems! There is a village in India that adopted Sanskrit. It's certainly still endangered, but not dead yet.

Re: Sanskrit As A Language Of Science

#20
I think Esperanto is a pretty good candidate for the language of science. As an attempt to not show linguistic or cultural bias, the International Academy of Sciences San Marino already uses it... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akademio_Internacia_de_la_Scie... Students write their thesis in both Esperanto and another language of their choice.

More interesting reading:

http://www.uea.org/dokumentoj/IKU/en/science.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esperanto#Science

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