Live data from Hacker News

Surface: Between a Rock and a Hardware Place

daringfireball.net

11–20 of 71 posts

Re: Surface: Between a Rock and a Hardware Place

#11
> So Microsoft faces a dilemma. Their business model of expensive software on cheap hardware is not sustainable. The future is nearly free software integrated into moderately priced hardware.

Apple, for all that's said about their software being excellent (and maybe it is) is a hardware maker. As such, they try to commoditize software: make complements to their own products as cheap as possible, so that the overall cost of buying Apple is as low as possible (while keeping their part of the profits as high as possible).

They have been immensely successful at this, obviously; but that doesn't mean "the future is nearly free software"! It means, Apple is trying to commoditize software and is doing a fantastic job at it. (Much better than what Sun tried to do for example).

But the answer to this, is that software makers should try to commoditize hardware. Of course, this is much harder, since the marginal price of a piece of hardware is non-zero. It may even be impossible, but that's still what Microsoft is trying to do -- it's not trying to jump into hardware making because "that's where profits are", it's trying to attack the hardware value proposition.

> the radical shift in Microsoft’s strategy is about the fight over the profits that remain after Apple’s

No, it really isn't. (Profits are the whole point, yes -- but the question is, what kind of profits are we talking about). Microsoft wants to bring the whole value of hardware down -- it doesn't want to take hardware profits for itself, it wants to make hardware profits disappear for everybody.

(It should give the Surface away for free.)

Re: Surface: Between a Rock and a Hardware Place

#12

I'm not sure I follow Gruber's post here, which ironically points out how Microsoft's presentation this week for a tablet was incoherent and all over the map (kind of like this post.) I guess he's trying to assess Microsoft's position in the market by comparing their product announcement presentation skills to Apple's. Really, when will the likes of Gruber learn that consumers will decide if they like those products,…

I disagree. If you can't tell a coherent story to people who are actively trying to fill in the gaps mentally, how will you tell it to the average Joe?

The disconnects imply that MS doesn't understand how to communicate with the non-technical, "buy stuff because it feels right" crowd. Instead, they try to market to everyone, and when you try to market to everyone, you succeed in marketing to nobody.

Re: Surface: Between a Rock and a Hardware Place

#13
I clicked on this story expecting the usual blatantly biased and totally pointless drivel from this guy. I wasn't disappointed. He keeps raising the bar for embarrassing tech commentary and that's why I will keep reading him knowing full well I shouldn't waste my time on that kind of trolling.

Now I'm even wasting your time by commenting on it. Please vote me down to -10 or I'll have to fagellate myself for an entire week!

Re: Surface: Between a Rock and a Hardware Place

#14
Yes, it really looks like Microsoft wants to be Apple. Based on what Elop does in Nokia I believe that Microsoft wants to buy Nokia as well. There are lot of steps that makes Nokia unattractive company for other companies (e.g. "patent trolling" accuses from Google to Nokia), other steps (MeeGo and Meltemi termination, Symbian support moved to Accenture) that leaves Nokia only with WP and outdated feature phones (what makes Nokia unattractive target again unless you are Microsoft).

Other companies might consider buying Nokia only to prevent Microsoft doing that what would be quite fun to watch actually.

Re: Surface: Between a Rock and a Hardware Place

#15
post #5

I'm not really sure what this post is trying to say. Is it trying to criticize Microsoft? It doesn't really feel like it. Is it just a "this is a very important time for MS" post? I think that's obvious. It IS a very important time for MS and Windows 8 needs to do well. I think the post misses an important angle to Surface though: in large part it is meant to make OEMs step their game up. It shows what Microsoft envi…

There is an implicit assumption that OEM's are just lining up waiting for Microsoft to release an OS for them. But with Android being both free and successful, OEMs have little reason to risk building top of the line devices for Microsoft. I suspect very few people could name off any of the dozen Windows Phone's other than the Lumina.

Re: Surface: Between a Rock and a Hardware Place

#16

I'm not sure I follow Gruber's post here, which ironically points out how Microsoft's presentation this week for a tablet was incoherent and all over the map (kind of like this post.) I guess he's trying to assess Microsoft's position in the market by comparing their product announcement presentation skills to Apple's. Really, when will the likes of Gruber learn that consumers will decide if they like those products,…

I disagree. If you can't tell a coherent story to people who are actively trying to fill in the gaps mentally, how will you tell it to the average Joe? The disconnects imply that MS doesn't understand how to communicate with the non-technical, "buy stuff because it feels right" crowd. Instead, they try to market to everyone, and when you try to market to everyone, you succeed in marketing to nobody.

Most people probably watch the ads on TV or somesuch and don't bother with keynotes.

Also, keynotes are hit-and-miss for everyone (including apple) and as such nobody has the time to sit and watch 45 mins of random people talking.

Re: Surface: Between a Rock and a Hardware Place

#17
post #11

> So Microsoft faces a dilemma. Their business model of expensive software on cheap hardware is not sustainable. The future is nearly free software integrated into moderately priced hardware. Apple, for all that's said about their software being excellent (and maybe it is) is a hardware maker. As such, they try to commoditize software: make complements to their own products as cheap as possible, so that the overall c…

The problem with your scenario is quite obvious.

Consumers do not see profit, they see price tag. Hardware comes with a price tag, so the options are sell at cost or find a way to subside the hardware.

With Apple pushing for ever so cheap App Store software so much so it is willing to drastically cut its own premium software's price. The potential for a software subsided hardware business is diminishing fast. While Apple may forever lost the ability to sell hardware at 100% markup, Microsoft in the mean time is losing the ability to sell software for $100 and more . It is already reality in consumer space, and the price structure is collapsing too in the business world.

Microsoft has the money to give millions of Surfaces away for free, then what? It kills all its OEM in the process and can not make the money back on 30% software sales cut. And next year Apple brings out fucking iPad 4... Genius plan then?

Re: Surface: Between a Rock and a Hardware Place

#18
I think they did rush the demo, but they needed to.

They'd revealed Windows 8 and had mixed reactions about teh touch interface, and both users and developers were skeptical about it. They needed to show off this hardware for everything to make sense. When I saw the presentation, I had this 'Ohhhhh....' moment where it all made sense - the interface, the hardware, their strategy.

They pushed this launch forward to show they actually had a plan.

Re: Surface: Between a Rock and a Hardware Place

#19
"Surface is a bold move, and classic Microsoft. If the OEMs don’t like it — and they do not — what are they going to do? Turn to Linux (which no one wants) ... ?"

I want Linux over Mac OSX and Windows 7. Imagine how fast Linux would grow if they got the OEMs's support.

Re: Surface: Between a Rock and a Hardware Place

#20
post #6

> Skepticism about these things doesn’t require knee-jerk Apple fandom. It simply requires an open set of eyeballs. This is why I don't read Daring Fireball regularly. It's a blog solely focused on being skeptical about everything. The whole premise seems to be to find flaws in products/services and tell the world about them. I don't mind skepticism, but there's a difference between "it has these cool concepts, but i…

Different reasons to avoid him for me. The 5by5 shenanigans put me right off him.
Post reply on HN