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Why Navajo is one of the most difficult languages (2023)

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Re: Why Navajo is one of the most difficult languages (2023)

#11
post #7

[flagged]

I'm not really understanding your criticism. It seems reasonable to assume that a more complex alphabet generally results in a more complex language. After all, when teaching language, a decent amount of time is spent just memorizing letters. Almost double the number of letters would make that task alone twice as hard. Of course, you could then make the argument that these vowels are encapsulated in English (as the s…

What they're saying is that English doesn't have 21 consonant sounds and 5 vowel sounds, which is 100% accurate.

English has 21 letters which we identify as consonants and 5 letters which we identify as vowels, which are used to write ~24 consonants (depending on accent, but generally clustered around there) and a large number of vowels that is impossible to neatly catalog because it varies widely by accent—it's somewhere in the neighborhood of 14-25, depending on accent.

Re: Why Navajo is one of the most difficult languages (2023)

#12

[flagged]

I think it's reasonably legit. By way of other languages as examples:

- words for half-empty/full - Eskimo-Aleut has 50 (?) words for different forms of snow

- tonality adds complexity; mandarin (4 tones + neutral), cantonese (9? tones)

- and various patois, not just in other languages, but also english (my exceedingly limited source being Graham Norton's youtube videos with the British/Scottish and Americans haha)

Re: Why Navajo is one of the most difficult languages (2023)

#13
post #12

[flagged]

I think it's reasonably legit. By way of other languages as examples: - words for half-empty/full - Eskimo-Aleut has 50 (?) words for different forms of snow - tonality adds complexity; mandarin (4 tones + neutral), cantonese (9? tones) - and various patois, not just in other languages, but also english (my exceedingly limited source being Graham Norton's youtube videos with the British/Scottish and Americans haha)

> Eskimo-Aleut has 50 (?) words for different forms of snow

This one is actually a very good example of the problem that OP is describing of non-linguists writing linguistics pieces.

The "50 words for snow" story is one of the first linguistics cautionary tales they'll teach you in a college linguistics course these days, on the same level as the Hyatt Regency walkway collapse is for engineering.

The short of it is that it's based on a misunderstanding of the word "word". English is a very analytic language [0] on the scale of things, meaning it doesn't tend to augment its words to create new meanings. Instead we add adjectives and adverbs and prepositions to adjust a word's meaning.

Inuit languages, meanwhile, are highly agglutinative [0], meaning instead of independent adjectives they attach morphemes (meaningful-chunks-of-speech, think prefixes and suffixes) to the word itself to alter its meaning. That's not really the same thing as having X words for Y, because the words are constructed from parts that have their own, independent meaning—these morphemes are essentially a set of adjectives, adverbs, and prepositions that happen to get attached to a word instead of just placed nearby.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analytic_language

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agglutinative_language

Re: Why Navajo is one of the most difficult languages (2023)

#14
The comment by cool_dude85 was a bit impolite but I agree that this is a low quality article. E.g., almost any linguist will tell you that you can't objectively measure a language's difficulty, because it always depends on what's the native language of the person asking the question.

Also, of course, comparing the number of sounds to the number of English alphabets makes absolutely zero sense.

Re: Why Navajo is one of the most difficult languages (2023)

#16
post #14

The comment by cool_dude85 was a bit impolite but I agree that this is a low quality article. E.g., almost any linguist will tell you that you can't objectively measure a language's difficulty, because it always depends on what's the native language of the person asking the question. Also, of course, comparing the number of sounds to the number of English alphabets makes absolutely zero sense.

[deleted]

Re: Why Navajo is one of the most difficult languages (2023)

#17
> Navajo also has a complex phenology [sic], featuring sounds that don’t exist in many other languages. It counts 33 consonants, including affricates and fricatives, and 12 vowels. (By comparison, the English alphabet has 21 and 5, respectively).

Someone else clarified this [0] but got flagged to death for being a bit too harsh, but I do think it's worth mentioning because this is used mistakenly as a prominent example of Navajo's difficulty: the raw numbers of consonants and vowels are not particularly extreme in Navajo, and the numbers that TFA cites for English are wrong.

They seem to have done a relatively simple analysis of the alphabet, but that's not how linguists think about phonology. The alphabet is our way of representing a much more complex system that underlies English, and English's vowel system in particular is far more complex than the alphabet makes it appear.

Our total number of consonants sits at about 24—the alphabet alone would make you forget about some of our affricates (ch as in charge) and some of our fricatives (sh as in shush, zh as in vision, th as in theme, dh as in though), plus a nasal (ng as in ring).

Our vowel system, meanwhile, has anywhere between ~16 in American English to ~25 in Received Pronunciation. Native speakers don't tend to realize just how complicated our vowels are, but getting them wrong is one of the most common ways to get recognized for having an accent.

All told, English has between 40 and 49 phonemes (again, depending on accent), which is quite comparable to Navajo's 45.

I've no doubt that Navajo is harder to learn for most people than English is, but I don't think the phonology plays a big role in that. English's phonology is plenty difficult.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41097443

Re: Why Navajo is one of the most difficult languages (2023)

#20
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It wasn’t so much what words they used. The Japanese just didn’t have any way of translating / understanding Navajo. Kind of like you may hear a language, and recognize what it is, but no idea what they are saying. The Navajo language was not written at the time, and it’s very different than others and subtle differences in tone can make all the difference. Their written notes of what they heard were probably general…

You could imagine a top-secret Japanese effort to infiltrate the US and kidnap a Navajo person. Might not work, of course, but there are a lot of Navajos. But even that wouldn't have worked.

A Navajo was captured in the Philippines at the beginning of the war, and interrogated. It didn't help. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Kieyoomia

There were Cherokee, Choctaw and Lakota code talkers in World War I.

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