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Microsoft Answers Coder Cries Over New Development Kit

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Re: Microsoft Answers Coder Cries Over New Development Kit

#11
post #2

Funny ... I haven't heard anyone crying. Oh yeah, they're all developing HTML5 applications that will run on Chrome and Firefox and maybe Internet Explorer. Why worry about the OS' look and feel?

Given that there were about four or five posts on the front page about the changes to the express version changes it would that a lot of people care. I'm glad Microsoft listened to people on this one.

I've only seen this one. Is HN bubbling us in? By this I mean an effect similar to google search results being personalized to the person who is searching.

Re: Microsoft Answers Coder Cries Over New Development Kit

#12

It seems like the risk of not collecting $500 from a bunch of developers is peanuts compared to the real threat MSFT now faces of people choosing to develop non Windows-specific apps which happen to still work on Windows. How many "apps" have you installed lately which are really just local servers with web front-ends? Qt-based stuff? Java SWT/Swing? What else? While many of these apps likely are built upon 3rd party…

True they still control a huge proportion of the desktop market, but most of that is business desktops. Apple's market share is heavily lopsided towards the high end consumer market. It's similar to their position with the iPhone. They have a minority market share, but its the most valuable part of the market.

For over a decade Microsoft has essentially been able to behave as if they have no competition, while Apple still has a culture of being lean, mean and hungry - plus they now have a hundred billion dollar war chest. I'm glad I'm not working for a competitor of theirs right now. At least

Microsoft does seem to be well aware of the problem, but the question is are they too big and slow to be able to react effectively? In mobile the answer was no. On the desktop they have the advantage of a real and significant market share dominance. It's going to be very interesting to see where things stand in 3 or 4 years time.

Re: Microsoft Answers Coder Cries Over New Development Kit

#13
Are they going to include 64bit support? The earlier versions of Visual Studio Express didn't which was a right royal pain for me. I produce a Python library and since Windows users don't have compilers have binary downloads available. To get 64 bit command line compiles I had to do an unholy wedging of VSE and the platform dev kit. (I'd much rather the Python developers used free software instead of forcing this stuff onto the rest of us.)

If anyone is curious you can see the downloads and popularity at http://code.google.com/p/apsw/downloads/list

Re: Microsoft Answers Coder Cries Over New Development Kit

#14

It seems like the risk of not collecting $500 from a bunch of developers is peanuts compared to the real threat MSFT now faces of people choosing to develop non Windows-specific apps which happen to still work on Windows. How many "apps" have you installed lately which are really just local servers with web front-ends? Qt-based stuff? Java SWT/Swing? What else? While many of these apps likely are built upon 3rd party…

That's exactly what the motivation for the "Metro/WinRT" strategy for Windows 8 was in the first place, though - to get more developers writing directly for (new versions of) Windows rather than relying on third-party (or even first-party) runtime layers.

Re: Microsoft Answers Coder Cries Over New Development Kit

#16

In before the hate train starts rolling full steam ahead right over Microsoft. This is a fantastic decision, they obviously really had no choice otherwise a lot of people would have abandoned Windows 8 development and Microsoft would have looked bad launching an OS that didn't have many supported applications. As for Windows XP support, why would Microsoft add in support for an OS they don't really support any more?…

     As for Windows XP support, why would Microsoft
     add in support for an OS they don't really support 
     any more?
Because Windows XP is stable, it works and a lot of companies and people are still using it.

If anything, Microsoft is to be blamed for not providing a compelling reason to upgrade. Windows Vista was awful, while Windows 7 is just a re-branded Vista with a little more polish applied. Which is why at home I still have Windows XP on my desktop.

     It has been 11 years, well almost 12
Windows 7 was released at the end of 2009, while XP was released in Aug 2001. That's 8 years in which people had no real upgrade option. Can you really blame them if they are a little conservative?

     the fact people want to support the outdated OS is like asking 
     Google to start supporting Internet Explorer 6 again
That's not a fair comparison, as downloading Firefox/Chrome is painless, is free, doesn't require a hardware upgrade, normal people can do it by themselves and they don't risk losing their data ... saying that upgrading Windows is painful would be an understatement.

Re: Microsoft Answers Coder Cries Over New Development Kit

#17

In before the hate train starts rolling full steam ahead right over Microsoft. This is a fantastic decision, they obviously really had no choice otherwise a lot of people would have abandoned Windows 8 development and Microsoft would have looked bad launching an OS that didn't have many supported applications. As for Windows XP support, why would Microsoft add in support for an OS they don't really support any more?…

As for Windows XP support, why would Microsoft add in support for an OS they don't really support any more? Because Windows XP is stable, it works and a lot of companies and people are still using it. If anything, Microsoft is to be blamed for not providing a compelling reason to upgrade. Windows Vista was awful, while Windows 7 is just a re-branded Vista with a little more polish applied. Which is why at home I stil…

Show me the person that's still running 2001 hardware with XP

Re: Microsoft Answers Coder Cries Over New Development Kit

#18
post #14

It seems like the risk of not collecting $500 from a bunch of developers is peanuts compared to the real threat MSFT now faces of people choosing to develop non Windows-specific apps which happen to still work on Windows. How many "apps" have you installed lately which are really just local servers with web front-ends? Qt-based stuff? Java SWT/Swing? What else? While many of these apps likely are built upon 3rd party…

That's exactly what the motivation for the "Metro/WinRT" strategy for Windows 8 was in the first place, though - to get more developers writing directly for (new versions of) Windows rather than relying on third-party (or even first-party) runtime layers.

WinRT feels foreign on many fronts.

I'm evaluating Win8 for us, and I compiled few of the examples that MS provided. My absolute first impression was that it's hard to debug these applications:

While there was a time, where few or more files were auto-generated, now there are dozens more. On top of that not one project, but two - one container (dll, your app), the other one - the runner (some small exe).

And then press F11 (debug), and see what happens - you are debugging full screen app (metro), and your debugger is running on the desktop. I don't have two monitors, so it might be better there - but what about people with laptops, or other mobile forms that ARE supposed to be the Windows 8 primary devices?

It seems like Windows 8 is collection of ideas, not very well stringed together. I like the "hooking" of one app to another, but it seems too limited - I was much more expecting docking of apps, even if it had some hard limits, but not only 2 apps side-to-side.

Things might improve, but I doubt many people would do professional software that is entirely for Metro. Once you do that, you are taking away from people the ability to run other apps at the same time on top of them.

For example, I regularly run DeskPins, and then I can pin on a window to stay on top - for example notepad, or something else. Now this is not possible.

The File Open/Search aspect is also strange. One thing that I loved of the Open File Dialog in normal Windows is that I can actually put a real URL from http, and it would download the file somehow, and later I can reopen it. Now this is gone.

The whole direction makes sense for mobile devices, but not for professional tools, unless the tools are modified that much that it won't hurt.

In our game studio, it's typical to see Maya/Motion Builder working together with two or three other tools opened, and often they cooperate - one tool displays data, the other edits it - now how... and why would I want to change this into the Metro way?

Re: Microsoft Answers Coder Cries Over New Development Kit

#19

Are they going to include 64bit support? The earlier versions of Visual Studio Express didn't which was a right royal pain for me. I produce a Python library and since Windows users don't have compilers have binary downloads available. To get 64 bit command line compiles I had to do an unholy wedging of VSE and the platform dev kit. (I'd much rather the Python developers used free software instead of forcing this stu…

I think that if you install the Windows 7.1 SDK, you should be able to choose Platform SDK and target it, rather than the built in compilers.

WSDK7.1 is VS2010, but at least latest IDE would be used.

Re: Microsoft Answers Coder Cries Over New Development Kit

#20
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same. Then I read the article and couldn't figure out who was crying. Had you not posted anything, I'd have spent the rest of my evening scratching my head on that one.

For everyone else who is still confused (including me until a minute ago), join coder and cries with a dash.

Thanks, I now parse it as "Microsoft replies to coder concerns about new development kit".
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