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The Nine Ways: On the Enneagram

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Re: The Nine Ways: On the Enneagram

#11
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Big Five and HEXACO models have proven pretty statistically reliable. But yeah, most any predecessors to those were complete ass pulls, often by people not really versed in the field (like Myers and Briggs).

Myers Briggs has a significant overlap with the Big 5. They’re mostly the same if you think about it from a Venn Diagram perspective

They're somewhat correlated, but not as well as you'd like:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myers%E2%80%93Briggs_Type_Indi...

Re: The Nine Ways: On the Enneagram

#12
post #4

You may like it or whatever, but don't think this is in any way objective, a trait which it has in common with practically all personality psychology.

Things like MBTI and enneagram and such are frameworks to talk about cognitive functions and all that. Holding them to the same standards as physics is a bit silly.

Re: The Nine Ways: On the Enneagram

#13
Regardless of how people feel about any of the personality frameworks and how well they describe human behavior, reasoning and makeup of the person -- it can be proven to be highly valuable in a day and age where people make judgements or seek to categorize and group people gauging how well they get along with those people. I am generally not a fan of labels, but, especially in our technology based field, as an INTP, I know to see other INTPs who process the world similarly to how I do. That's been difficult to calculate how useful that is to me and others. This also comes up in dating sometimes -- if you can discern that someone is a compatible type, it can be helpful.

The same poo-pooing comes up of Astrology. Now, I'm not one to go around saying that I'm a Rainbow Farting Horse Rising -- I only go as far as 'Aquarius', 'Scorpio', etc. But in that realm, there's a fantastic book called Sextrology that can give insights on partner compatibility in the bedroom and related realms. The authors, much like Meyers Briggs have interacted with an untold amount of couples. Unfortunately book has no 'edition' moniker, just a 'revised' notation so it's hard to tell how many times it's published, but it is a fascinating and great reference to get a quick read on someone and what their needs and desires may be. I've utilized it with several partners with positive and solid results.

If you're skeptical or unsure of any of these frameworks, I recommend giving them a more serious visit or consideration. Especially with something like MBTI, reading books of the time that are hidden classics that people aren't aware of (e.g. "Please Understand Me I and II") are very illuminating despite people's disdain for the MBTI as it currently sits.

Re: The Nine Ways: On the Enneagram

#14

Regardless of how people feel about any of the personality frameworks and how well they describe human behavior, reasoning and makeup of the person -- it can be proven to be highly valuable in a day and age where people make judgements or seek to categorize and group people gauging how well they get along with those people. I am generally not a fan of labels, but, especially in our technology based field, as an INTP,…

I'm surprised to see such woo in a top comment on hacker news. The accuracy or theoretical underpinning of these 'frameworks' aren't contentious, they're non existent.

There are solidly researched and evidenced personality theories developed and validated through quantitative research in academic psychology. These include the 'Big Five' trait approaches like MMPI and social learning theory.

Astrology, Myers–Briggs and other forms of pseudo-psychological theories are not theoretically grounded and do not show experimental validation. Myers–Briggs wasn't created by psychologists or sociologists and in fact wasn't based on any theoretical framework at all. Its a scientism based approach routed in a reading of Jungian theory. It has no predictive utility for human behaviour.

You're welcome to 'believe' anything you like of course. But it's a category error to put such theories into the same epistemic category as psychological theories. They're precisely equivalent to any other projective theory - from kabala to tarot the i ching. If cold reading yourself or others provides you with meaning - great. But these ideas should absolutely never be used in hiring or any other official capacity. They don't have a foothold in objective reality.

Re: The Nine Ways: On the Enneagram

#15
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does "statistically reliable" mean in context of a multiple choice test of preferences and predispositions?

It means you can ask people on a questionnaire "are you open to new experiences" and then later offer them a new experience and get some papers off this incredibly shocking finding. Someday psychology might be a science but it isn't now; it just rejected its alchemical mystics like it saw the cool sciences doing, but without any paradigm to follow them.

You'll be shocked when you realise that neuroimaging is entirely based on the results of cognitive measurements. i.e.: correlations between whats in the image and the kinds of tests you're traducing.

Re: The Nine Ways: On the Enneagram

#16
post #14

Regardless of how people feel about any of the personality frameworks and how well they describe human behavior, reasoning and makeup of the person -- it can be proven to be highly valuable in a day and age where people make judgements or seek to categorize and group people gauging how well they get along with those people. I am generally not a fan of labels, but, especially in our technology based field, as an INTP,…

I'm surprised to see such woo in a top comment on hacker news. The accuracy or theoretical underpinning of these 'frameworks' aren't contentious, they're non existent. There are solidly researched and evidenced personality theories developed and validated through quantitative research in academic psychology. These include the 'Big Five' trait approaches like MMPI and social learning theory. Astrology, Myers–Briggs an…

100% this.

See also Dr Ben Hardy's "Personality Isn't Permanent".

Re: The Nine Ways: On the Enneagram

#17

Regardless of how people feel about any of the personality frameworks and how well they describe human behavior, reasoning and makeup of the person -- it can be proven to be highly valuable in a day and age where people make judgements or seek to categorize and group people gauging how well they get along with those people. I am generally not a fan of labels, but, especially in our technology based field, as an INTP,…

> If you're skeptical or unsure of any of these frameworks

I am not unsure. I'm quite certain it's all complete and utter garbage protected with circular ex post facto justifications (and I'm surprised the author of the post is an assistant professor in a University).

Re: The Nine Ways: On the Enneagram

#18
post #14

Regardless of how people feel about any of the personality frameworks and how well they describe human behavior, reasoning and makeup of the person -- it can be proven to be highly valuable in a day and age where people make judgements or seek to categorize and group people gauging how well they get along with those people. I am generally not a fan of labels, but, especially in our technology based field, as an INTP,…

I'm surprised to see such woo in a top comment on hacker news. The accuracy or theoretical underpinning of these 'frameworks' aren't contentious, they're non existent. There are solidly researched and evidenced personality theories developed and validated through quantitative research in academic psychology. These include the 'Big Five' trait approaches like MMPI and social learning theory. Astrology, Myers–Briggs an…

The absence of scientific proof is not a scientific proof of a negative result.

> They don't have a foothold in objective reality.

Even when some scientists have made a claim about objective reality, we have to remember that they make their claims in the face of social pressures. It's only after enough scientists seem to believe a fact that parts of the general population starts to accept it as "science." And if even science boils down to "many people are saying it," we probably shouldn't make any bold claims about "objective reality" with condescension and closed minds.

Re: The Nine Ways: On the Enneagram

#19
post #17

Regardless of how people feel about any of the personality frameworks and how well they describe human behavior, reasoning and makeup of the person -- it can be proven to be highly valuable in a day and age where people make judgements or seek to categorize and group people gauging how well they get along with those people. I am generally not a fan of labels, but, especially in our technology based field, as an INTP,…

> If you're skeptical or unsure of any of these frameworks I am not unsure. I'm quite certain it's all complete and utter garbage protected with circular ex post facto justifications (and I'm surprised the author of the post is an assistant professor in a University).

Reasonable people find value in it. You might be missing out by shutting yourself off from it!

Re: The Nine Ways: On the Enneagram

#20
post #14

Regardless of how people feel about any of the personality frameworks and how well they describe human behavior, reasoning and makeup of the person -- it can be proven to be highly valuable in a day and age where people make judgements or seek to categorize and group people gauging how well they get along with those people. I am generally not a fan of labels, but, especially in our technology based field, as an INTP,…

I'm surprised to see such woo in a top comment on hacker news. The accuracy or theoretical underpinning of these 'frameworks' aren't contentious, they're non existent. There are solidly researched and evidenced personality theories developed and validated through quantitative research in academic psychology. These include the 'Big Five' trait approaches like MMPI and social learning theory. Astrology, Myers–Briggs an…

IIRC, there was some analysis done a while back that demonstrated that MBTI categories were strongly correlated to particular combinations of Big Five traits. If that is true, then MBTI piggybacks on whatever scientific validity has been established w/r/t Big Five.

It should also be pointed out that heuristics developed from ground-level experience can still be useful regardless of whether they are anchored in any formal theoretical framework. Most of us navigate the world most of the time by applying informal knowledge, intuition and insights obtained from local experience -- empiricism at the micro level -- rather than making inferences on the basis of theoretical frameworks. Formal models can certainly help us refine our knowledge and correct errors, but are not in themselves necessary to construct a sufficiently workable understanding of reality.

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