Reading up on the jhanas they are clearly a very real, very distinct thing. But they aren't obviously to the benefit of anyone except the practitioner and it is practically impossible to verify if someone has actually experienced them. So they drop out of the conversation pretty quickly unless they are attached to something else (this is a large part of the genius of Buddhism and other religions, attaching good ideas to social rites).
How to do the jhanas
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Re: How to do the jhanas
#12It is not even access concentration the Jhana 1 description. It is "just" the natural joy that arises from doing wholesome states like ethical behavior or generosity or unconditional love. (Which is good! Really good! just lets not appropriate the term 'jhana') It is great people are discovering that there is a happiness within that is not dependent on getting things or things being a certain way and you can increase…
Re: How to do the jhanas
#13I've been meditating pretty consistently for the last year 20 min meditations or more every day and though I've put way more than the time the OP put in trying to achieve jhanas I couldn't even reach the first one. I wonder what I'm missing!
Re: How to do the jhanas
#14Earlier quoted context omitted.
I dunno, I think it’s worthwhile to acknowledge that this describes the (very?) shallow end of the pool but these language game land wars are profoundly uninteresting to me. This–and TWIM jhanas in general–certainly involve the arising of the relevant jhana factors. People feel real and somewhat life-changing experiences of piti, sukha, equanimity… are those, due to limited concentration, below some critical threshol…
> these language game land wars "Energy" is also a "language game war" between internet posts on physics and professional physics. > This–and TWIM jhanas in general–certainly involve the arising of the relevant jhana factors. Yes. So someone suggested calling them "mindfulness of the jhana factors". Also the word for joy in several languages is "piti". We can talk of joy and happiness, and see it's not the same as jh…
The main reference I can think of off the top of my head is something along the lines of “with a mind thus purified [by jhana] the meditator inclines the mind to [insight practice]”, which feels compatible with either the very strong Vsm version or the weaker end of loose interpretations of the suttas. Even a really really weak experience of J4-flavored equanimity still reduces stray selfing enough to make insight practice work better. Obviously this effect is magnified many many times by the pa auk style jhana states.
Perhaps there are other specific claims I haven’t read.
[edit to respond to AN reference in edit] interesting, first I’ve seen this one. On one hand it does seem to imply a slightly higher level of concentration than other suttas I’ve read but even here it only talks about elimination of desirable/arousing sensory phenomena, not the sense of “pretty much all sensual phenomena” that Vsm points to. I don’t actually have a super hard time squaring this with what Jhourney and TWIM teach.
Re: How to do the jhanas
#15It is not even access concentration the Jhana 1 description. It is "just" the natural joy that arises from doing wholesome states like ethical behavior or generosity or unconditional love. (Which is good! Really good! just lets not appropriate the term 'jhana') It is great people are discovering that there is a happiness within that is not dependent on getting things or things being a certain way and you can increase…
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Re: How to do the jhanas
#16But that was when I was really into concentration meditation. (And believe you me, there is real magic there).
These days I do the other thing (vipassana. Dry. That is to say, without concentration meditation prep).
Re: How to do the jhanas
#17It is not even access concentration the Jhana 1 description. It is "just" the natural joy that arises from doing wholesome states like ethical behavior or generosity or unconditional love. (Which is good! Really good! just lets not appropriate the term 'jhana') It is great people are discovering that there is a happiness within that is not dependent on getting things or things being a certain way and you can increase…
I dunno, I think it’s worthwhile to acknowledge that this describes the (very?) shallow end of the pool but these language game land wars are profoundly uninteresting to me. This–and TWIM jhanas in general–certainly involve the arising of the relevant jhana factors. People feel real and somewhat life-changing experiences of piti, sukha, equanimity… are those, due to limited concentration, below some critical threshol…
Re: How to do the jhanas
#18Jhanas are distinctive states reached when you do concentration meditation deeply. Like, when you go this deep you'll see this weird thing. And when you get this deep you see this other weird thing , and so on. I've gotten to the third or thereabouts. But that was when I was really into concentration meditation. (And believe you me, there is real magic there). These days I do the other thing (vipassana. Dry. That is…
Re: How to do the jhanas
#19I've been meditating pretty consistently for the last year 20 min meditations or more every day and though I've put way more than the time the OP put in trying to achieve jhanas I couldn't even reach the first one. I wonder what I'm missing!
Re: How to do the jhanas
#20Jhanas are distinctive states reached when you do concentration meditation deeply. Like, when you go this deep you'll see this weird thing. And when you get this deep you see this other weird thing , and so on. I've gotten to the third or thereabouts. But that was when I was really into concentration meditation. (And believe you me, there is real magic there). These days I do the other thing (vipassana. Dry. That is…
Why dry? Doesn't the jhana lube make it smoother?