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US Forest Service proposes protections for old-growth trees, without logging ban

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Re: US Forest Service proposes protections for old-growth trees, without logging ban

#11
post #9

The Federal government made a deal with forrest communities. We will have national forests that you won't get any property tax revenues from, but you will get revenue from the forestry, mining, and other economic activity on that land. Then the federal government shutdown most economic activity, and local communities had to shutdown their schools and other government functions (while at the same time losing their lum…

Which 'deal' specifically, could you provide a link so we can read more?

Anytime a post references the “feds” in such an ambiguous way, it seems like a flag for potential misunderstanding.

Re: US Forest Service proposes protections for old-growth trees, without logging ban

#12
post #2

The rationale that a certain amount of logging to thin forests is beneficial is correct. I don't know the details, or how they'll administer it to avoid excesdive logging, but at least in California we have almost 3x as many trees per acre compared to pre-white settlement: https://story.californiasunday.com/gone-paradise-fire

Old Growth forests are already thin.

The tree density is large because they are all thin and likely to burn.

Re: US Forest Service proposes protections for old-growth trees, without logging ban

#13
Old growth trees are the best, tightest grain, toughest wood, they’ve stood the test of time. These are most desirable and we should take advantage of them, but for useful purposes , not firewood or chipwood or other crappy “products”.

We need a real sustainability plan which reuses that land for trees again, but not garage fast growing genetically similar trees. We need to promote genetic diversity

Re: US Forest Service proposes protections for old-growth trees, without logging ban

#14
post #2

The rationale that a certain amount of logging to thin forests is beneficial is correct. I don't know the details, or how they'll administer it to avoid excesdive logging, but at least in California we have almost 3x as many trees per acre compared to pre-white settlement: https://story.californiasunday.com/gone-paradise-fire

Trees per acre seems like a seriously misleading statistic. A freshly planted tree farm is going to have the highest trees per acre, but be the most useless forest. I would expect a few old growth trees in an acre would be a substantially better forest, visually, environmentally, and ecologically, than having three times as many young trees.

I think you and parent comment might actually agree. The 3x trees is an indication of too much, too many small trees, too much fuel. Places that burn and recover lose their "excess" trees. The trees get more space and are healthy top to bottom.

OTOH, tree farm trees are bred to have few branches and are planted very close together. Tree farms grow tree trunks, not trees.

There is a line of thought, which honestly I think comes from the timber industry, that growing trees are a bigger carbon sink than existing trees. They do argue that the tree farm is actually better because it is growing. I'm extremely skeptical of that claim. Particularly skeptical because the trees in tree farms are so unhealthy, the total amount of green vegetative surface on them is confined to a small canopy and has no vertical depth.

In comparison, old growth vs tree farm is night and day for ecology. Tree farms are very dense, rodents thrive in them but not necessarily much else. Old growth OTOH is generally a pleasure to walk through.

> I would expect a few old growth trees in an acre would be a substantially better forest

There's indeed a mixture of ages unless we are talking a tree farm. A tree farm is a mono-culture with trees approximately the same age all growing like Q-tips together.

Old growth trees are fire resistant. The younger ones trees get overshaded and don't grow, or they burn down before they get tall enough. The young trees that do survive, they go on to become the next generation of old growth trees.

(My experience on the subject: extensive time camping & bikepacking in Northwest forests, I've traveled through a several thousand miles of northwest forests in the last 10 years)

Re: US Forest Service proposes protections for old-growth trees, without logging ban

#15

The Federal government made a deal with forrest communities. We will have national forests that you won't get any property tax revenues from, but you will get revenue from the forestry, mining, and other economic activity on that land. Then the federal government shutdown most economic activity, and local communities had to shutdown their schools and other government functions (while at the same time losing their lum…

Outside of cities, the main ways to make a living is using the natural resources. Logging, mining, farming etc.

Laws are made by city people, who think of work as something you do sitting by a desk. They see the countryside as a nature reserve to keep beautiful for their vacation trips. So they ban most commercial use of natural resources.

This is part of what makes rural communities poor and desperate societies, surrounded my massive wealth that they "own", but are not allowed to prosper from.

Re: US Forest Service proposes protections for old-growth trees, without logging ban

#16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://talltimbers.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Sloan1998a... I found this, where they do note the number of trees has gone up markedly. They note the critical role of low intensity fire. I doubt selective logging can replace regular burns, but unfortunately there's a great deal of opposition to doing that. Mostly by people living in those fire-prone areas.

lots of the public are very ignorant about ecologically sound forest management, unfortunately. "save the trees" is an effective emotional argument. i was once one of those people, but then i learned

Instead of "us versus them" statements, I encourage vigorous examination of presuppositions. The urgency of the situation could not be more obvious.

The claim "the public is ignorant" is oft repeated by industry-friendly experts in all levels of academia and government. But the policies of the experts have been an objective disaster in the US West. You appear to promote science that is invalidated in real time.

Re: US Forest Service proposes protections for old-growth trees, without logging ban

#17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://talltimbers.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Sloan1998a... I found this, where they do note the number of trees has gone up markedly. They note the critical role of low intensity fire. I doubt selective logging can replace regular burns, but unfortunately there's a great deal of opposition to doing that. Mostly by people living in those fire-prone areas.

lots of the public are very ignorant about ecologically sound forest management, unfortunately. "save the trees" is an effective emotional argument. i was once one of those people, but then i learned

"save the trees" is probably better re-labelled as "save the old growth trees". Would you agree?

Would you consider tree farms as ecologically sound? (I'll note those are intentionally over-planted, homogeneous, and burn like crazy)

Which key facts caused you to change your mind?

Re: US Forest Service proposes protections for old-growth trees, without logging ban

#18
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

lots of the public are very ignorant about ecologically sound forest management, unfortunately. "save the trees" is an effective emotional argument. i was once one of those people, but then i learned

I spent a couple of years consulting to earthforce.io (they make forest management software)- before I started I thought I understood forestry, boy how wrong I was, how little I knew! For those interested in learning the basics, this is a pretty good playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLvOmkebY7k2UP4N_BicWV...

where is the Board of Directors, owners and investors of Earthforce.io declared in public?
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