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New branding, same scanning: Upload moderation undermines end-to-end encryption [pdf]

signal.org

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Re: New branding, same scanning: Upload moderation undermines end-to-end encryption [pdf]

#11

Post by dijit »

mihaic wrote: post #2

After losing my phone and not having a way to recover a lot of data, I've come to the realization that I don't want end to end encryption. I just want a responsible entity to store all my data in a secure way, and they'd only make money from what I'd pay them. If I lose everything, I still want access to my data, even if a proof of identity costs me. Of course incentive systems make that very hard in today's corporat…

Your ideal situation is likely federation.

But Signal doesn't want that, and most people are too cowardly to trust anyone other than the people who absolutely must make a profit running such a system.

Re: New branding, same scanning: Upload moderation undermines end-to-end encryption [pdf]

#12

Post by throwaway22032 »

eterps wrote: post #6

I'm wondering if this proposal is enforced, and you opt out, how would it be known whether you're sending someone a URL? How would a URL even be distinguished from other text when you have opted out? I suppose you could detect some patterns, and it definitely wouldn't be clickable. But is the text google.com considered a URL for example? I guess it isn't? (yeah I know, it's a stupid law anyway, but just wondering)

It's like the oldschool scam days on MMO's.

g3tfr33g0ld DOT сом

Re: New branding, same scanning: Upload moderation undermines end-to-end encryption [pdf]

#13

Post by 7bit »

fiddlerwoaroof wrote: post #10
scotty79 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think end-to-end encryption prevents server backup. It means that decryption keys is in your mind and at most on your personal device.

A server backup is useless if you can’t decrypt it and it’s very easy to accidentally lose the keys for end-to-end decryption. I too have lost my Signal history by migrating to a new phone incorrectly.

The two are not related. Signal has no proper backup and restore, otherwise you could have restored.mulziple times over. It's one of the things that piss me off about signal. Just give me a fucking Backup that I can restore on android and iPhone and desktop alike!

Re: New branding, same scanning: Upload moderation undermines end-to-end encryption [pdf]

#14

Post by fiddlerwoaroof »

7bit wrote: post #13
fiddlerwoaroof wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A server backup is useless if you can’t decrypt it and it’s very easy to accidentally lose the keys for end-to-end decryption. I too have lost my Signal history by migrating to a new phone incorrectly.

The two are not related. Signal has no proper backup and restore, otherwise you could have restored.mulziple times over. It's one of the things that piss me off about signal. Just give me a fucking Backup that I can restore on android and iPhone and desktop alike!

They are related: even if Signal had a backup, you’d have to have some way to recover the key when you lose your device. For example, Matrix does offer backups but you need a key to decrypt the backup if you lose access to all your verified devices.

Without some easy to use out-of-band key backup solution, an E2EE server backup is no backup at all.

Re: New branding, same scanning: Upload moderation undermines end-to-end encryption [pdf]

#15

Post by AlexandrB »

squigz wrote: post #9
mihaic wrote: post #2

After losing my phone and not having a way to recover a lot of data, I've come to the realization that I don't want end to end encryption. I just want a responsible entity to store all my data in a secure way, and they'd only make money from what I'd pay them. If I lose everything, I still want access to my data, even if a proof of identity costs me. Of course incentive systems make that very hard in today's corporat…

This is not just idealistic - it's bordering on naive. Tech companies have proven, repeatedly, over decades, that they are not responsible with our data.

And even if they are at one point in time, there's no guarantee that this behavior will continue. The rush to scan everything into AI is a prime example.

Re: New branding, same scanning: Upload moderation undermines end-to-end encryption [pdf]

#16

Post by fl0id »

fiddlerwoaroof wrote: post #14
7bit wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The two are not related. Signal has no proper backup and restore, otherwise you could have restored.mulziple times over. It's one of the things that piss me off about signal. Just give me a fucking Backup that I can restore on android and iPhone and desktop alike!

They are related: even if Signal had a backup, you’d have to have some way to recover the key when you lose your device. For example, Matrix does offer backups but you need a key to decrypt the backup if you lose access to all your verified devices. Without some easy to use out-of-band key backup solution, an E2EE server backup is no backup at all.

But it’s not related to this story. Nobody prevents you from using services that do not operate like signal (and esp with desktop it is now very easy to backup your messages) Just use those. This is just about whether sth like signal should be allowed to exist.

Re: New branding, same scanning: Upload moderation undermines end-to-end encryption [pdf]

#17

Post by lukeschlather »

dijit wrote: post #11
mihaic wrote: post #2

After losing my phone and not having a way to recover a lot of data, I've come to the realization that I don't want end to end encryption. I just want a responsible entity to store all my data in a secure way, and they'd only make money from what I'd pay them. If I lose everything, I still want access to my data, even if a proof of identity costs me. Of course incentive systems make that very hard in today's corporat…

Your ideal situation is likely federation. But Signal doesn't want that, and most people are too cowardly to trust anyone other than the people who absolutely must make a profit running such a system.

Federation doesn't help at all if your host is untrustworthy. This is a question of having strong data privacy rules baked into law and also a good compliance regime. In fact, federation can make things a lot worse since federation makes it a lot harder to reason about who is transmitting and storing your data.

Re: New branding, same scanning: Upload moderation undermines end-to-end encryption [pdf]

#18

Post by nine_k »

scotty79 wrote: post #3
mihaic wrote: post #2

After losing my phone and not having a way to recover a lot of data, I've come to the realization that I don't want end to end encryption. I just want a responsible entity to store all my data in a secure way, and they'd only make money from what I'd pay them. If I lose everything, I still want access to my data, even if a proof of identity costs me. Of course incentive systems make that very hard in today's corporat…

I don't think end-to-end encryption prevents server backup. It means that decryption keys is in your mind and at most on your personal device.

No, the key is also on a piece of paper somewhere safe. On a piece of metal if you care so much, see crypto wallet keys.

This helps against everything except a valid search warrant from your government. If you don't do outright illegal stuff, and don't live under an authoritarian regime, it should be fine. (If you do both, you have bigger problems.)

Re: New branding, same scanning: Upload moderation undermines end-to-end encryption [pdf]

#19

Post by fiddlerwoaroof »

fl0id wrote: post #16
fiddlerwoaroof wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are related: even if Signal had a backup, you’d have to have some way to recover the key when you lose your device. For example, Matrix does offer backups but you need a key to decrypt the backup if you lose access to all your verified devices. Without some easy to use out-of-band key backup solution, an E2EE server backup is no backup at all.

But it’s not related to this story. Nobody prevents you from using services that do not operate like signal (and esp with desktop it is now very easy to backup your messages) Just use those. This is just about whether sth like signal should be allowed to exist.

The GP of my post was:

> After losing my phone and not having a way to recover a lot of data, I've come to the realization that I don't want end to end encryption.

Effective backups and key management are 100% related to this thread

Re: New branding, same scanning: Upload moderation undermines end-to-end encryption [pdf]

#20

Post by dijit »

lukeschlather wrote: post #17
dijit wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your ideal situation is likely federation. But Signal doesn't want that, and most people are too cowardly to trust anyone other than the people who absolutely must make a profit running such a system.

Federation doesn't help at all if your host is untrustworthy. This is a question of having strong data privacy rules baked into law and also a good compliance regime. In fact, federation can make things a lot worse since federation makes it a lot harder to reason about who is transmitting and storing your data.

Nothing helps if your host is untrustworthy.

But need I go into the little rant about how signal controlling the clients and the network means you have to take it on trust?

However the point of federation is that you can find someone you trust. - and you get to control data residency, all those weird hard to comply with laws become super easy if your uncle hosts a family chat server that federates with others; or your ISP, or your favourite local library.

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