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FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

nytimes.com

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Re: FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

#11

Post by gorbypark »

DannyBee wrote: post #8
Marazan wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I show you a lump of metal and I tell you it is titanium how do you know I am not lying?

1. It will be non-magnetic 2. Easiest, most accessible testing method is scratching it on tile or glass. When scratched against glass (or ceramic tile), steel will probably leave a real scratch, aluminum will do nothing, titanium will leave a pencil-like line.

I am guessing that it was real titanium, just a different grade/alloy/treating process being passed off as something it was not or it's possible it's even the same quality/grade, just of unknown provenance (fell off the back of a truck) and its documents were forged. Seems kinda likely as Boeing says (as I understand from the article) they have tested the parts and it's the correct grade of titanium.

Re: FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

#12

Post by DannyBee »

gorbypark wrote: post #11
DannyBee wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. It will be non-magnetic 2. Easiest, most accessible testing method is scratching it on tile or glass. When scratched against glass (or ceramic tile), steel will probably leave a real scratch, aluminum will do nothing, titanium will leave a pencil-like line.

I am guessing that it was real titanium, just a different grade/alloy/treating process being passed off as something it was not or it's possible it's even the same quality/grade, just of unknown provenance (fell off the back of a truck) and its documents were forged. Seems kinda likely as Boeing says (as I understand from the article) they have tested the parts and it's the correct grade of titanium.

Sure, i answered the literal question.

You are correct that this is what the article says - testing suggests it is in fact titanium, just maybe not the right treatment.

That would be harder, but one would think that a company making airframes for aviation, in a highly regulated environment/etc, would occasionally send off samples to double check them.

Getting titanium analyzed to a degree you could tell whether it is the right grade/alloy is cheap and fast - I can get it done for Given the cost of what they are producing, how few they produce, and how much they sell them for, and how quickly you can get this kind of thing done, they could test every single lot of titanium they get and neither increase cost, nor slow down production.

This also isn't a case where there are lots of people in the middle - this supplier is the ones machining and producing the final product from titanium alloys.

Also, if you change suppliers, wouldn't you at least test the stuff they give you the first time?

Re: FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

#13

Post by icegreentea2 »

bell-cot wrote: post #2

However much you can "save" by outsourcing...in a sufficiently fraud-plagued business environment, it's seldom worth it longer-term. Conveniently, modern businesses and their leaders are judged and rewarded purely on short-term metrics.

What was the problematic outsourcing decision here? Buying your titanium from a titanium supplier? Is Spirit supposed to be refine and foundry all their own metal alloys?

I agree that it's a little bonkers that Boeing spun off it's own aerostructures, but since it seems like Boeing has it's own problems with internal fraudulent inspection reports, this sure doesn't seem like an out sourcing problem per-se.

Re: FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

#15

Post by scherlock »

Marazan wrote: post #5
JSDevOps wrote: post #3

How the fuck do you counterfeit titanium it’s one of those things that is either or it’s not.

If I show you a lump of metal and I tell you it is titanium how do you know I am not lying?

Ohh, I've done this. I bought some titanium bike parts and I was suspicious if they were titanium. I measured the weight of the bolts then dropped them in a graduated cylinder to get the volume, mass divas by volume is density, I then looked up the density and it was the same.

Re: FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

#16

Post by icegreentea2 »

DannyBee wrote: post #12
gorbypark wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am guessing that it was real titanium, just a different grade/alloy/treating process being passed off as something it was not or it's possible it's even the same quality/grade, just of unknown provenance (fell off the back of a truck) and its documents were forged. Seems kinda likely as Boeing says (as I understand from the article) they have tested the parts and it's the correct grade of titanium.

Sure, i answered the literal question. You are correct that this is what the article says - testing suggests it is in fact titanium, just maybe not the right treatment. That would be harder, but one would think that a company making airframes for aviation, in a highly regulated environment/etc, would occasionally send off samples to double check them. Getting titanium analyzed to a degree you could tell whether it is…

For all we know, Spirit could have had sufficient testing, and the titanium actually pass all tests. That doesn't preclude fraudulent certificates.

Re: FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

#18

Post by satiated_grue »

scherlock wrote: post #15
Marazan wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I show you a lump of metal and I tell you it is titanium how do you know I am not lying?

Ohh, I've done this. I bought some titanium bike parts and I was suspicious if they were titanium. I measured the weight of the bolts then dropped them in a graduated cylinder to get the volume, mass divas by volume is density, I then looked up the density and it was the same.

I see you have studied your Agrippa^H^H^H^H^H^H^H Archimedes.

Re: FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

#19

Post by mk_stjames »

JSDevOps wrote: post #3

How the fuck do you counterfeit titanium it’s one of those things that is either or it’s not.

When you hear 'Titanium' mentioned in an engineering sense, rarely is this a reference to elemental titanium alone; structures use alloys of titanium which means small percentages of other metals are added (aluminum and vanadium for example are the two principle alloying metals in Grade 5 titanium, 6AL4V, probably the most common in aerosapce applications), and then the wrought products are even further processed through solution heat treating, etc. The same goes for aluminum, steels, etc. This is the purpose of the entire field of metallurgy....

Your comment would be like the equivalent in computer science of saying "Why do you need to write a computer program; the computer either works or it doesn't..."

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