European content removal laws are scrubbing the internet of legal content • Hacker News Board

Re: European content removal laws are scrubbing the internet of legal content

#11

Post by charbroiled » Thu, Jun 13, 2024, 9:55 PM UTC

> Of the deleted comments examined across platforms and countries, between 87.5% and 99.7%, depending on the sample, were legally permissible.

Even of the content that’s not “legally permissible,” it’s worth questioning what exactly is not permitted. It was mere months ago that the EU threatened YouTube for hosting “incitement to violence or propaganda for terrorist organizations”—a lot of which was actual real footage of massacres that is valuable and should not be suppressed in a free society, yet keeps getting taken down from platform after platform due to pressure from regulators. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37884292

This is a common practice in cultures that don’t believe in free speech according to the American standard. For example, videos of the Christchurch mosque shootings were banned by the New Zealand Chief Censor (yes, that’s a real title—https://www.classificationoffice.govt.nz/news/news-items/res...). Sharing the video can get you arrested. https://gizmodo.com/18-year-old-arrested-in-new-zealand-for-...

Surely it’s distasteful to keep these sordid videos available to and viewable by the general public, but when the government prohibits citizens from forming their opinions from stark video of real events, it drastically empowers inflammatory rhetoric on social media—more legally permissible according to their standards—to influence people’s opinions instead. That leaves society as a whole worse off.

Re: European content removal laws are scrubbing the internet of legal content

#12

Post by buzer » Thu, Jun 13, 2024, 9:56 PM UTC

If the comments were removed due to being presumably being illegal (rather than due to company determining they simply don't want that kind of speech, e.g. spam) wouldn't it be prudent for the platforms to report all instances to the local police after removing the comment? If the police determines to not continue with the investigation then the speech must be legal and thus could be restored and they can adjust their moderation accordingly.

Re: European content removal laws are scrubbing the internet of legal content

#13

Post by interactivecode » Thu, Jun 13, 2024, 10:02 PM UTC

DEADMINCE wrote: post #8

European content removal laws don't apply outside of Europe which means they don't apply to the internet, only a 'version' of the internet. If you live in a country that doesn't let you access the 'true' internet, you don't live in a free country.

If you live in a country that doesn’t protect you. It’s not a country, it’s just a government sized HOA.

Re: European content removal laws are scrubbing the internet of legal content

#14

Post by interactivecode » Thu, Jun 13, 2024, 10:12 PM UTC

fallingknife wrote: post #9

Just to note some speech that has been considered illegal in Europe: - calling Muhammad a pedophile - convicted of blasphemy (JFC!) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E.S._v._Austria_(2018) - posting the government's own crime statistics - convicted of inciting hate https://europeanconservative.com/articles/news/afd-politicia... - a video of a dog doing a Hitler salute - hate crime https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-gla…

Why are you so worried about freedom of speech when you haven’t even separated state and religion?

Also, Freedom of speech doesn’t mean acceptance of hate. Im glad that content and people who encourage racism are removed.

Re: European content removal laws are scrubbing the internet of legal content

#15

Post by DEADMINCE » Thu, Jun 13, 2024, 10:40 PM UTC

interactivecode wrote: post #13

DEADMINCE wrote: post #8

European content removal laws don't apply outside of Europe which means they don't apply to the internet, only a 'version' of the internet. If you live in a country that doesn't let you access the 'true' internet, you don't live in a free country.

If you live in a country that doesn’t protect you. It’s not a country, it’s just a government sized HOA.

Censorship is rarely protection.

Re: European content removal laws are scrubbing the internet of legal content

#16

Post by squigz » Thu, Jun 13, 2024, 10:52 PM UTC

charbroiled wrote: post #11

> Of the deleted comments examined across platforms and countries, between 87.5% and 99.7%, depending on the sample, were legally permissible. Even of the content that’s not “legally permissible,” it’s worth questioning what exactly is not permitted. It was mere months ago that the EU threatened YouTube for hosting “incitement to violence or propaganda for terrorist organizations”—a lot of which was actual real foota…

On the topic of such videos, I do feel like more people need to view these things. Not casually, or as entertainment, but to get a glimpse of what these events are actually like. I watched the Christchurch shooting, and seeing the callousness of it all... I don't know, it changes you.

Re: European content removal laws are scrubbing the internet of legal content

#17

Post by technobach » Thu, Jun 13, 2024, 11:25 PM UTC

fallingknife wrote: post #10

moomin wrote: post #7

I guarantee you that if I started filling every HackerNews thread with My Little Pony memes, every “Free Speech Absolutist” would manage to grasp the point that sometimes you want to remove legal content.

But this is missing the issue entirely. Your spammy posts would be removed because nobody here wants to see them if they even could after the deluge of downvotes. What is happening in Europe is that people are posting things that users do want to see, but the government doesn't want people to see it.

Given that 99% of the removed comments were legal, it doesn't seem like it's the governments that are restricting what people are seeing.

Re: European content removal laws are scrubbing the internet of legal content

#18

Post by brokenmachine » Thu, Jun 13, 2024, 11:28 PM UTC

squigz wrote: post #16

charbroiled wrote: post #11

> Of the deleted comments examined across platforms and countries, between 87.5% and 99.7%, depending on the sample, were legally permissible. Even of the content that’s not “legally permissible,” it’s worth questioning what exactly is not permitted. It was mere months ago that the EU threatened YouTube for hosting “incitement to violence or propaganda for terrorist organizations”—a lot of which was actual real foota…

On the topic of such videos, I do feel like more people need to view these things. Not casually, or as entertainment, but to get a glimpse of what these events are actually like. I watched the Christchurch shooting, and seeing the callousness of it all... I don't know, it changes you.

I agree. I've seen a lot, but that Christchurch video was a very hard watch.

But in a way I'm happy I did see it, just to know what some people are capable of.

I feel that I'd be quicker to react if I was ever unlucky enough to be in such a situation because of it. My brain wouldn't be in shock and trying to work out if it was real or not for so long.

Re: European content removal laws are scrubbing the internet of legal content

#19

Post by Georgelemental » Thu, Jun 13, 2024, 11:33 PM UTC

technobach wrote: post #17

fallingknife wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But this is missing the issue entirely. Your spammy posts would be removed because nobody here wants to see them if they even could after the deluge of downvotes. What is happening in Europe is that people are posting things that users do want to see, but the government doesn't want people to see it.

Given that 99% of the removed comments were legal, it doesn't seem like it's the governments that are restricting what people are seeing.

Something doesn't have to be "officially" illegal for laws to suppress it. If the law gives no penalty for a false-positive block, but very high penalties for any false-negative failure to censor, then companies will be incentivized to err on the side of censoring legal speech.

Re: European content removal laws are scrubbing the internet of legal content

#20

Post by Georgelemental » Thu, Jun 13, 2024, 11:38 PM UTC

interactivecode wrote: post #14

fallingknife wrote: post #9

Just to note some speech that has been considered illegal in Europe: - calling Muhammad a pedophile - convicted of blasphemy (JFC!) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E.S._v._Austria_(2018) - posting the government's own crime statistics - convicted of inciting hate https://europeanconservative.com/articles/news/afd-politicia... - a video of a dog doing a Hitler salute - hate crime https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-gla…

Why are you so worried about freedom of speech when you haven’t even separated state and religion? Also, Freedom of speech doesn’t mean acceptance of hate. Im glad that content and people who encourage racism are removed.

> Also, Freedom of speech doesn’t mean acceptance of hate.

Yes it does. “I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_Party_of_Am...