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Seeing Like a Data Structure

belfercenter.org

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Re: Seeing Like a Data Structure

#11
post #9

How much you want to bet one or both of these folks saw patio11's Seeing Like a Bank here on Hacker News a few months ago, read it, then read Seeing Like a State, and then wrote this? Because I did the same thing (my version for my problem still in draft) https://www.bitsaboutmoney.com/archive/seeing-like-a-bank/ https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38180477 Also, Seeing Like a State seems to be something of an cult…

as much as I enjoy Patrick's writing, i was assuming it was solely a reference to Seeing Like a State. and yes it's a cult classic among the bay area rat/libertarian-esque folks, had never heard of it before coming here

Re: Seeing Like a Data Structure

#12
post #6
post #4

Well written and engaging, but I think there is a lot more room to really explore what the sociological, techno-economic, power dynamic etc ramifications are of specific data structures. This doesn’t go too far beyond the surface level notion of data , and there are plenty of discussions of the historical significance of taxonomizing and “objectifying” and archiving and surveilling the world into data from Foucault t…

Word salad.

Sorry! More succinctly: the authors explore politics of data, as opposed to politics of data structures. I’m curious what the latter would really look like.

Re: Seeing Like a Data Structure

#14
> Two decades ago, in his book Seeing Like a State, anthropologist James C. Scott explored what happens when governments, or those with authority, attempt and fail to “improve the human condition.” Scott found that to understand societies and ecosystems, government functionaries and their private sector equivalents reduced messy reality to idealized, abstracted, and quantified simplifications that made the mess more “legible” to them. With this legibility came the ability to assess and then impose new social, economic, and ecological arrangements from the top down: communities of people became taxable citizens, a tangled and primeval forest became a monoculture timber operation, and a convoluted premodern town became a regimented industrial city.

One thing that I remember from Seeing Like a State is that people used to be judged by village tribunals, and now we have fair trials at the state level. People used to live in the same place all their life, now we can go in many places. Making things more legible can mean destroying a forest by making it into a monoculture timber operation. It can also mean allowing all kind of people to live as long as they pay taxes, offering them freedom that they couldn't find in a smaller structure.

I think it's very important to remember that the map is not the territory, that unknown unknowns exist as well as known unknowns, that trying to impose to people a specific way of life will often not make them happier. But also that technology has meant better lives for most people on this planet.

Re: Seeing Like a Data Structure

#15
post #4

Well written and engaging, but I think there is a lot more room to really explore what the sociological, techno-economic, power dynamic etc ramifications are of specific data structures. This doesn’t go too far beyond the surface level notion of data , and there are plenty of discussions of the historical significance of taxonomizing and “objectifying” and archiving and surveilling the world into data from Foucault t…

Yeah, the author does not seem to know what a data structure is, or assume the reader does not know and won't mind.

Re: Seeing Like a Data Structure

#16
post #15
post #4

Well written and engaging, but I think there is a lot more room to really explore what the sociological, techno-economic, power dynamic etc ramifications are of specific data structures. This doesn’t go too far beyond the surface level notion of data , and there are plenty of discussions of the historical significance of taxonomizing and “objectifying” and archiving and surveilling the world into data from Foucault t…

Yeah, the author does not seem to know what a data structure is, or assume the reader does not know and won't mind.

Feels that if anything, the author is describing computational abstractions, not data structures per se. They mention the term in the text, but then continue to say "data structure" while talking about everything except data structures. For example:

"a local cafe is no longer a community hangout but a data structure containing a menu, a list of reservation options, and a hundred 5-star ratings"

This description is focusing on the "not data structure" parts like what is there, what it means, and what can be done with it; the data structure part would be, how it's arranged and what the impact of that is.

It's still clear what the author means, and they are using the relevant terminology, just the irony is in details being named opposite to what they should be.

Re: Seeing Like a Data Structure

#17
post #14

> Two decades ago, in his book Seeing Like a State, anthropologist James C. Scott explored what happens when governments, or those with authority, attempt and fail to “improve the human condition.” Scott found that to understand societies and ecosystems, government functionaries and their private sector equivalents reduced messy reality to idealized, abstracted, and quantified simplifications that made the mess more…

This is a general cognitive problem in reducing a higher dimensional object to a lower dimensional representation for processing. For a complex entity like society and/or human wellbeing, it seems inevitable that the representation will mask important non-tangible/non-measurable dimensions of the object being considered.

Re: Seeing Like a Data Structure

#18
post #14

> Two decades ago, in his book Seeing Like a State, anthropologist James C. Scott explored what happens when governments, or those with authority, attempt and fail to “improve the human condition.” Scott found that to understand societies and ecosystems, government functionaries and their private sector equivalents reduced messy reality to idealized, abstracted, and quantified simplifications that made the mess more…

This is a general cognitive problem in reducing a higher dimensional object to a lower dimensional representation for processing. For a complex entity like society and/or human wellbeing, it seems inevitable that the representation will mask important non-tangible/non-measurable dimensions of the object being considered.

Some dimensional reduction is always possible, due to the Johnson-Lindenstrauss lemma. For example, for 8 billion data points, reducing to 1400 dimensions enables preserving distances within +- 50% (that can probably be tightened a bit) regardless of what the uncompressed data is.

Re: Seeing Like a Data Structure

#20
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, the author does not seem to know what a data structure is, or assume the reader does not know and won't mind.

Feels that if anything, the author is describing computational abstractions, not data structures per se. They mention the term in the text, but then continue to say "data structure" while talking about everything except data structures. For example: "a local cafe is no longer a community hangout but a data structure containing a menu, a list of reservation options, and a hundred 5-star ratings" This description is fo…

It's a general-audience essay, not one targeted towards the HN community. So unfortunately there's little opportunity to delve any deeper into what specific data structures are involved in holding the data and the difference that might make. There are data structures underneath in the excerpt you pulled out and they're so common in code that we don't even notice it. (Even something as simple as this: certain data structures are better for finding recent / first items and others are better for finding "top" / largest items. That has implications that ripple upward and can skew what users are shown.) It would be nice to consider the differences in how different data structures store data and their broader implications.
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