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The Myth of Medieval Small Beer (2017)

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Re: The Myth of Medieval Small Beer (2017)

#11

Post by resolutebat »

hnlmorg wrote: post #8
resolutebat wrote: post #2

I'm not entirely sure I buy this argument. There are vast swathes of the world today where drinking tap water will likely make you sick, and in all these countries it is standard procedure to boil tap water before drinking it. In fact, in eg China & Indonesia, cold water (even if clean) is believed to be bad for you and drinking still warm boiled water or weak tea instead is very common. Was medieval England really a…

You’re comparing England from ~800 years ago to modern day countries. That hardly seems fair. There’s a lot of knowledge we take for granted that simply hadn’t been discovered yet in medieval times.

What, boiling water? The Chinese have been drinking tea for thousands of years.

Re: The Myth of Medieval Small Beer (2017)

#12

Post by resolutebat »

card_zero wrote: post #7
legitster wrote: post #3

I feel like some of these debunkings need debunking! I don't think anyone is truly arguing that medieval people never drank water. But they did drink beer in quantities that would be untenable today. The author is also muddling points - medieval people didn't have to understand microbiology to know that beer was safer to drink. And it was! Not only would the brewer have access to better water, it would be boiled as p…

You're just shoehorning in the assumption that people had diarrhea a lot, because that's the trope about medieval Europe. But if everybody lives in a well-established traditional way (and there's no current war or plague in the area) then they will also know by tradition the springs, streams and wells that yield clean water. In Georgian times, around 1800, coal-based industry gets under way, there's a population expl…

Natural springs are rare, while streams and rivers are often muddy, seasonal and/or contaminated by domestic animals and wildlife. There's a reason wells were very common.

Re: The Myth of Medieval Small Beer (2017)

#13

Post by anthk »

card_zero wrote: post #7
legitster wrote: post #3

I feel like some of these debunkings need debunking! I don't think anyone is truly arguing that medieval people never drank water. But they did drink beer in quantities that would be untenable today. The author is also muddling points - medieval people didn't have to understand microbiology to know that beer was safer to drink. And it was! Not only would the brewer have access to better water, it would be boiled as p…

You're just shoehorning in the assumption that people had diarrhea a lot, because that's the trope about medieval Europe. But if everybody lives in a well-established traditional way (and there's no current war or plague in the area) then they will also know by tradition the springs, streams and wells that yield clean water. In Georgian times, around 1800, coal-based industry gets under way, there's a population expl…

Even "natural springs" could give you tons of diarrhea due to some animals taking a dump nearby.

Re: The Myth of Medieval Small Beer (2017)

#14

Post by anthk »

refactor_master wrote: post #10
hnlmorg wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re comparing England from ~800 years ago to modern day countries. That hardly seems fair. There’s a lot of knowledge we take for granted that simply hadn’t been discovered yet in medieval times.

But humans have been cooking stuff for thousands and thousands of years to improve nutritional value and kill off bacteria. Why would water be an exception?

Water evaporates and people would think twice before 'losing' it.

Re: The Myth of Medieval Small Beer (2017)

#15

Post by hnlmorg »

refactor_master wrote: post #10
hnlmorg wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re comparing England from ~800 years ago to modern day countries. That hardly seems fair. There’s a lot of knowledge we take for granted that simply hadn’t been discovered yet in medieval times.

But humans have been cooking stuff for thousands and thousands of years to improve nutritional value and kill off bacteria. Why would water be an exception?

Bacteria wasn’t known about thousand of years ago. Nor were nutrients (in the sense that we know it now).

There are a plethora of other reasons food might have been cooked, not least of all being flavour. The fact that it also killed bacteria would have been an accidental benefit.

Also a lot of food actually loses nutrients when cooked.

Re: The Myth of Medieval Small Beer (2017)

#16

Post by hnlmorg »

resolutebat wrote: post #11
hnlmorg wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re comparing England from ~800 years ago to modern day countries. That hardly seems fair. There’s a lot of knowledge we take for granted that simply hadn’t been discovered yet in medieval times.

What, boiling water? The Chinese have been drinking tea for thousands of years.

You don’t make tea to kill bacteria. You make it because of the flavour.

Re: The Myth of Medieval Small Beer (2017)

#17

Post by actionfromafar »

hnlmorg wrote: post #16
resolutebat wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What, boiling water? The Chinese have been drinking tea for thousands of years.

You don’t make tea to kill bacteria. You make it because of the flavour.

Sometimes people do things for a certain reason but it can also have other positive effects. In a way, it doesn’t matter why a trait or behaviour spreads, as long as it’s beneficial.

Re: The Myth of Medieval Small Beer (2017)

#18

Post by AnthonBerg »

ggm wrote: post #9

"12 years in a monastery" (1897) by Joseph McCabe mentions the astronomical amount of beer drunk by monks, as a matter of routine (albiet in the late 19th century) He was one, before he went over the wall and became a proto socialist free thinker philosopher.

Went to take a look; There’s beauty in it. Thank you!

Here, for others’ convenience: https://en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/Twelve_Years_in_a_Monastery

Re: The Myth of Medieval Small Beer (2017)

#19

Post by closewith »

card_zero wrote: post #7
legitster wrote: post #3

I feel like some of these debunkings need debunking! I don't think anyone is truly arguing that medieval people never drank water. But they did drink beer in quantities that would be untenable today. The author is also muddling points - medieval people didn't have to understand microbiology to know that beer was safer to drink. And it was! Not only would the brewer have access to better water, it would be boiled as p…

You're just shoehorning in the assumption that people had diarrhea a lot, because that's the trope about medieval Europe. But if everybody lives in a well-established traditional way (and there's no current war or plague in the area) then they will also know by tradition the springs, streams and wells that yield clean water. In Georgian times, around 1800, coal-based industry gets under way, there's a population expl…

People have diarrhoea a lot today, in developed countries with stable access to clean water and food. If anything, people massively underestimate the amount of diarrhoea premodern living involved.

Re: The Myth of Medieval Small Beer (2017)

#20

Post by hnlmorg »

actionfromafar wrote: post #17
hnlmorg wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don’t make tea to kill bacteria. You make it because of the flavour.

Sometimes people do things for a certain reason but it can also have other positive effects. In a way, it doesn’t matter why a trait or behaviour spreads, as long as it’s beneficial.

I don’t disagree with your sentiment but the literal topic of conversation here is the “why” part.

Sometimes conversations can have practical applications. Other times they’re just academic for academics sake. But both are perfectly fine conversations to have.

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