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Is the move to electric cars running out of power?

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Is the move to electric cars running out of power?

#11

Post by Ekaros »

eigenspace wrote: post #7
ta1243 wrote: post #6

Without tax incentives EVs are far more expensive for people who only drive say 5-10k miles a year. My fuel costs are about 15p/mile in my old rustbucket (45mpg is about 10 miles per litre, £1.50 a litre) An EV will do say 4 miles per kWh, so in theory at 30p/kWh that's 7.5p per mile, half the price. 5000 miles a year that's £375 saving with electric. Add in another £160 VED saving (again my old bucket) and that's £5…

> Without tax incentives EVs are far more expensive for people who only drive say 5-10k miles a year. If you're only driving 5-10k miles a year, car ownership seems like a massive unnecessary burden, electric or ICE. But given you're measuring in miles, I guess there's a good chance you're not from somewhere with adequate public transit and bicycle infrastructure. In my opinion, we really need to focus less on person…

There is always opportunity cost... I like having car available even if I drive very little or short distances. It is there when I need it.

And electric cars don't have same range as my cheap gasoline car. Not at least on same price point. So at times I need that range getting 160-200km to somewhere and then back without charging...

And taxis here are expensive. It would not be that many trips in a month with all the things that I consider car is nicer...

Re: Is the move to electric cars running out of power?

#12

Post by ta1243 »

eigenspace wrote: post #7
ta1243 wrote: post #6

Without tax incentives EVs are far more expensive for people who only drive say 5-10k miles a year. My fuel costs are about 15p/mile in my old rustbucket (45mpg is about 10 miles per litre, £1.50 a litre) An EV will do say 4 miles per kWh, so in theory at 30p/kWh that's 7.5p per mile, half the price. 5000 miles a year that's £375 saving with electric. Add in another £160 VED saving (again my old bucket) and that's £5…

> Without tax incentives EVs are far more expensive for people who only drive say 5-10k miles a year. If you're only driving 5-10k miles a year, car ownership seems like a massive unnecessary burden, electric or ICE. But given you're measuring in miles, I guess there's a good chance you're not from somewhere with adequate public transit and bicycle infrastructure. In my opinion, we really need to focus less on person…

k is kilo. As in 1000. 5000-10000 miles. UK average is about that.

But you go chuntering on about your high density living and fantasies that there will be public transport at 2130 tonight from the nearby village 8 miles away where the scout hut is back to my house.

Whenever I try to get a taxi to the station (a mere 9 miles away) it's massively unreliable, had to get a hotel in the past because they just don't exist in the real world at 3AM. We don't all live in the middle of London or Paris or NYC.

Re: Is the move to electric cars running out of power?

#13

Post by votepaunchy »

eigenspace wrote: post #7
ta1243 wrote: post #6

Without tax incentives EVs are far more expensive for people who only drive say 5-10k miles a year. My fuel costs are about 15p/mile in my old rustbucket (45mpg is about 10 miles per litre, £1.50 a litre) An EV will do say 4 miles per kWh, so in theory at 30p/kWh that's 7.5p per mile, half the price. 5000 miles a year that's £375 saving with electric. Add in another £160 VED saving (again my old bucket) and that's £5…

> Without tax incentives EVs are far more expensive for people who only drive say 5-10k miles a year. If you're only driving 5-10k miles a year, car ownership seems like a massive unnecessary burden, electric or ICE. But given you're measuring in miles, I guess there's a good chance you're not from somewhere with adequate public transit and bicycle infrastructure. In my opinion, we really need to focus less on person…

>> Without tax incentives EVs are far more expensive for people who only drive say 5-10k miles a year.

> If you're only driving 5-10 miles a year, car ownership seems like a massive unnecessary burden, electric or ICE.

This is off by a factor of 1000.

Re: Is the move to electric cars running out of power?

#14

Post by thebruce87m »

> BYD also saw a slowdown between January and March.

Did they, though?

> BYD sold 300,114 EVs globally in the first three months of the year, up 13.4% YOY. In April, BYD sold another 134,465 EVs, up 17% over April 2023. Through the first four months of 2024, BYD sold 434,579 electric cars.

https://electrek.co/2024/05/15/byd-just-hit-new-weekly-ev-sa....

Re: Is the move to electric cars running out of power?

#15

Post by Ekaros »

piva00 wrote: post #10
beAbU wrote: post #9

I think it's cost. Up to now, EVs have been very very expensive. We are only now starting to see EVs approaching the €20k mark. Al lthe rich folks who are interested in getting an EV got one already. The rest of us still can't afford them. I'm in the market now, but I'll be looking at the 2nd hand market because new is just too rich for my blood. Here in Ireland the grants are also drying up reducing the incentives f…

The only fear I'd have buying a 2nd hand on what I consider these 1st/2nd generation EVs is battery repairability/replacement. Buying a 10 years old used ICE car is a pretty common and affordable option for many people, a 10 years old EV might need its whole battery pack replaced, and as far as I know that is a pretty massive cost.

And with 10 year old cars you have enough spread to know the common issues and costs to repair those. Some of them are pretty minor. But battery packs still can be very substantial comparatively.

And I would really worry about some second/third hand battery from fly-by night operator that might actually not properly guarantee anything.

Re: Is the move to electric cars running out of power?

#16

Post by eigenspace »

votepaunchy wrote: post #13
eigenspace wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Without tax incentives EVs are far more expensive for people who only drive say 5-10k miles a year. If you're only driving 5-10k miles a year, car ownership seems like a massive unnecessary burden, electric or ICE. But given you're measuring in miles, I guess there's a good chance you're not from somewhere with adequate public transit and bicycle infrastructure. In my opinion, we really need to focus less on person…

>> Without tax incentives EVs are far more expensive for people who only drive say 5-10k miles a year. > If you're only driving 5-10 miles a year, car ownership seems like a massive unnecessary burden, electric or ICE. This is off by a factor of 1000.

Sorry, typo I did mean 5-10k miles

Re: Is the move to electric cars running out of power?

#17

Post by karmakurtisaani »

exar0815 wrote: post #8

I won't drive an electric car as long as possible. Not because they are electric or I have any love at all for cumbustion cars, but because I work in the industry. I see what's inside those things, I see what the plans for the next generation are, and they are a cost-cutters wet dream. They are getting even more over-engineered, fully stuffed of useless, cheap, consumer-standard-manufactured gadgets, with software so…

Surely you have a concrete example of any of this at least?

Re: Is the move to electric cars running out of power?

#18

Post by ZeroGravitas »

thebruce87m wrote: post #14

> BYD also saw a slowdown between January and March. Did they, though? > BYD sold 300,114 EVs globally in the first three months of the year, up 13.4% YOY. In April, BYD sold another 134,465 EVs, up 17% over April 2023. Through the first four months of 2024, BYD sold 434,579 electric cars. https://electrek.co/2024/05/15/byd-just-hit-new-weekly-ev-sa... .

It's a seasonal drop, here's a story from early 2023 talking about the same phenomenon.

"Seasonal drop in Chinese auto sales in Jan won’t drag growth on recovery in 2023”

https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202302/1285181.shtml

Does the BBC writer know this and intentionally misrepresent it? Hard to say.

Re: Is the move to electric cars running out of power?

#19

Post by beAbU »

piva00 wrote: post #10
beAbU wrote: post #9

I think it's cost. Up to now, EVs have been very very expensive. We are only now starting to see EVs approaching the €20k mark. Al lthe rich folks who are interested in getting an EV got one already. The rest of us still can't afford them. I'm in the market now, but I'll be looking at the 2nd hand market because new is just too rich for my blood. Here in Ireland the grants are also drying up reducing the incentives f…

The only fear I'd have buying a 2nd hand on what I consider these 1st/2nd generation EVs is battery repairability/replacement. Buying a 10 years old used ICE car is a pretty common and affordable option for many people, a 10 years old EV might need its whole battery pack replaced, and as far as I know that is a pretty massive cost.

This is true, and EVs have not been in the market long enough to really know how they behave over long periods of time and high miles. There is also not a strong enough secondary market of mechanics, parts dealers, second-hand parts, generic batteries/drive units etc.

BUT, having said that, the common sentiment that I'm picking up in my online "research" is that it's not as a big issue as made out to be.

The Nissan Leaf specifically has issues with its battery design that makes high mileage batteries that were mostly fast-charged very suspect, but in general for other cars with proper thermal management, degradation is not really an issue. 80% after 5-10 years is not so bad, especially if the car is much cheaper than comparable new models.

But yes, the cost of replacing that battery after 10-20 years is massive, considering that an ICE car will happily last that long if it's looked after, and if not, usually an engine overhaul is all that's needed.

Once again, it comes back to cost. Everything is too expensive, and EVs are still seen as a luxury item, compared to an affordable means of transport.

Re: Is the move to electric cars running out of power?

#20

Post by soco »

denvrede wrote: post #3

For me personally (I spoke to others and they mostly agree) the biggest downside is that for "public" charging I pay a 100% premium. My costs at home (I live in a rented apartment with no possibility of charging an EV) for 1kw/h are 0.30€. The average price for charging publicly here are 0.59€. Plus the hassle of having a quadrillion providers for which I would have to check first what the cheapest one at a given cha…

Same feeling here. Given enough cars, thus given enough pressure, I'm convinced we will see some regulation coming into place. I just hope it won't become like the actual regional energy monopoly...
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