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U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

forbes.com

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Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#11

Post by walthamstow »

ein0p wrote: post #9
jollofricepeas wrote: post #7

I don’t understand how so many HNers are anti-union and anti-collective bargaining. The fact that corporations and billionaires are so anti-union and engage in regular conduct like this demonstrates that unions are pro-worker and ideal for the balance needed in the US and across the globe. Balance is key between workers and owners. Without it we are left with growing wealth inequality such as… - ridiculous housing pr…

Public school education is poor in part because it’s darn near impossible to fire bad teachers though. And I don’t see how unions would improve housing affordability. I’m not against unions per se, particularly for positions which are not as lavishly compensated as a typical white collar FAANG employee. I’m merely pointing out that you need to pick better examples. Otherwise you just undermine your own argument.

Neither of you are giving examples, only conjecture. Bad teachers are a noteworthy cause of poor schools. House prices wouldn't be so high if we had unions. Ok, prove it. Or at least give me some reasoning to go off.

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#12

Post by cjk2 »

jollofricepeas wrote: post #7

I don’t understand how so many HNers are anti-union and anti-collective bargaining. The fact that corporations and billionaires are so anti-union and engage in regular conduct like this demonstrates that unions are pro-worker and ideal for the balance needed in the US and across the globe. Balance is key between workers and owners. Without it we are left with growing wealth inequality such as… - ridiculous housing pr…

I'm anti-union AND pro labour regulation. Your government should be targeting wealth inequality with legislation and public services on all of these issues. The union tends to become another opaque organisation with a power hierarchy of its own and layers of internal politics and power struggles. The unions rarely if ever push for legislation change either because it would risk their existence.

The corporations should live in fear of the government, not an independent union.

Also my father was a union member for many years but was ousted after suggesting that full time management were wasting members' money on expenses. This turned into a 2 year long shit show where he was pretty much forced out of the job he had for being a non union scab. As much as being told he was a lesser human.

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#13

Post by flandish »

jollofricepeas wrote: post #7

I don’t understand how so many HNers are anti-union and anti-collective bargaining. The fact that corporations and billionaires are so anti-union and engage in regular conduct like this demonstrates that unions are pro-worker and ideal for the balance needed in the US and across the globe. Balance is key between workers and owners. Without it we are left with growing wealth inequality such as… - ridiculous housing pr…

It’s because HN folks seem to consider themselves above working-class or soon to be above. They’re just temporarily stuck before they find their big ceo level breaks.

They often demonstrate ideals that go counter to their own interests while simping for daddy ceo’s boot and money.

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#14

Post by cbsmith »

jollofricepeas wrote: post #7

I don’t understand how so many HNers are anti-union and anti-collective bargaining. The fact that corporations and billionaires are so anti-union and engage in regular conduct like this demonstrates that unions are pro-worker and ideal for the balance needed in the US and across the globe. Balance is key between workers and owners. Without it we are left with growing wealth inequality such as… - ridiculous housing pr…

> The fact that corporations and billionaires are so anti-union and engage in regular conduct like this demonstrates that unions are pro-worker and ideal for the balance needed in the US and across the globe.

I think there are a lot of things that demonstrate that unions are pro-worker and ideal for the balance needed in the US and across the globe, but that isn't one of them.

Corporations & billionaires are so anti-union because they perceive unions as reducing their profits, which is not necessarily the same thing as them being pro-worker or ideal.

You'll find that, outside of the defense industry, corporations & billionaires generally don't like wars, for exactly the same reason; that doesn't really suggest anything good about wars.

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#15

Post by wickedsickeune »

jollofricepeas wrote: post #7

I don’t understand how so many HNers are anti-union and anti-collective bargaining. The fact that corporations and billionaires are so anti-union and engage in regular conduct like this demonstrates that unions are pro-worker and ideal for the balance needed in the US and across the globe. Balance is key between workers and owners. Without it we are left with growing wealth inequality such as… - ridiculous housing pr…

> The fact that corporations and billionaires are so anti-union and engage in regular conduct like this demonstrates that unions are pro-worker and ideal for the balance needed in the US and across the globe.

No, that's incorrect. The corporations could also be anti-nuclear war, this would not make it good for workers.

A better example is to look at countries with functional unions and functional capitalism, like the Netherlands, Denmark and others.

The quality of life won by union conflicts with capital owners is a measurable fact.

Unions can be implemented and be useless for the workers (an example for the most part is Greece), or maybe too demanding like France. It's up to the participants of the union to shape it as a net contributor to society. The point is that each individual member has a significant say in how a union operates, meanwhile in corporations, even middle management can be completely powerless.

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#16

Post by ein0p »

walthamstow wrote: post #11
ein0p wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Public school education is poor in part because it’s darn near impossible to fire bad teachers though. And I don’t see how unions would improve housing affordability. I’m not against unions per se, particularly for positions which are not as lavishly compensated as a typical white collar FAANG employee. I’m merely pointing out that you need to pick better examples. Otherwise you just undermine your own argument.

Neither of you are giving examples, only conjecture. Bad teachers are a noteworthy cause of poor schools. House prices wouldn't be so high if we had unions. Ok, prove it. Or at least give me some reasoning to go off.

What is the mechanism under which houses would be more affordable if employees had more money thanks to the unions? Real estate (and by extension rents) will take up any available slack on income.

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#17

Post by cbsmith »

sjtgraham wrote: post #5

The whole idea of the executive branch functioning as the judicial branch is a bananas concept to me.

They aren't functioning as the judicial branch. As part of the responsibilities of the executive branch, they have to decide when there's a problem, so they can decide if they need to execute. Indeed, the next step here is to take Apple to court.

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#18

Post by raverbashing »

ein0p wrote: post #9
jollofricepeas wrote: post #7

I don’t understand how so many HNers are anti-union and anti-collective bargaining. The fact that corporations and billionaires are so anti-union and engage in regular conduct like this demonstrates that unions are pro-worker and ideal for the balance needed in the US and across the globe. Balance is key between workers and owners. Without it we are left with growing wealth inequality such as… - ridiculous housing pr…

Public school education is poor in part because it’s darn near impossible to fire bad teachers though. And I don’t see how unions would improve housing affordability. I’m not against unions per se, particularly for positions which are not as lavishly compensated as a typical white collar FAANG employee. I’m merely pointing out that you need to pick better examples. Otherwise you just undermine your own argument.

It would be better if they could fire the bad students as well

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#19

Post by sjtgraham »

wolverine876 wrote: post #10
sjtgraham wrote: post #5

The whole idea of the executive branch functioning as the judicial branch is a bananas concept to me.

Instead of the same old talking point, what solution do you propose? Should the executive branch agency make decisions by fiat, without due process? The use of due process doesn't make them a judiciary; it's just a more fair way to make decisions within their purview. Should we move every such judgment out of the executive branch's hands? First, they have to be able to make some decisions. But the heart of this issue…

> Instead of the same old talking point, what solution do you propose?

Unnecessarily hostile opening, but full separation of powers as written in the Constitution.

> Should the executive branch agency make decisions by fiat, without due process?

It should not be adjudicating any kind of legal controversy. That is not the role of the executive branch.

> The use of due process doesn't make them a judiciary; it's just a more fair way to make decisions within their purview.

It's very often worse. Executive agencies often have legislative functions, i.e. APA rulemaking, as well judicial functions, e.g. in this matter. The SEC is another one, (see SEC vs Jarkesy currently before SCOTUS).

> Should we move every such judgment out of the executive branch's hands?

Yes.

> But the heart of this issue is, as is well known: There aren't nearly enough capacity in the judicial branch to handle all that work. It's a trick to prevent lawful and needed regulation from happening by severely cutting their capacity.

Total BS.

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#20

Post by jajko »

jollofricepeas wrote: post #7

I don’t understand how so many HNers are anti-union and anti-collective bargaining. The fact that corporations and billionaires are so anti-union and engage in regular conduct like this demonstrates that unions are pro-worker and ideal for the balance needed in the US and across the globe. Balance is key between workers and owners. Without it we are left with growing wealth inequality such as… - ridiculous housing pr…

You are trying to blame literally every public policy failure in US on unions, that's simply incorrect and they stem from many other sources. I know its convenient in some populist fashion, but unless you understand the root cause of each of those, any sort of fix has no chance of arriving.

Unions make corporations extremely sluggish when they need to react quickly to sudden market shocks or changes of direction of companies, be it positive or negative (yes, includes firing people for which there is suddenly no work anymore). There are corporations that have them heavily and they are not the top of the cream when it comes to progress, agility nor salary pay.

The money is the key issue here - people want extra safety/bargaining net as long as their ultra massive FAANG-like salaries are not touched. How many would agree with say 20% cut while working exactly the same, but being unionized? That's maybe how much that additional burden is to the owners/managers. I suspect not that many but maybe I an wrong.

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