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The business of takehome assessments

careerfair.io

11–20 of 62 posts

Re: The business of takehome assessments

#11

>I’m 27 and single. There lies the biggest advantage of a takehome assessment for me: I get to spend more time on it than someone with a wife and two kids. I noticed the same thing. It seems take homes are mainly geared towards pre-selecting young single people with a lot of free time to code on the side besides their main job and other responsibilities, or who have no other responsibilities. Now I'm also single and…

> It seems take homes are mainly geared towards pre-selecting young single people with a lot of free time to code on the side besides their main job and other responsibilities, or who have no other responsibilities. (snip) I question the future of my career in tech, how will I be able to compete for new jobs later when I won't be, and take homes will be normalized?

My counterpoint to this is that takehome tests are great for folks who don't necessarily do well on brainteasers, but are otherwise strong functional developers. Despite having a family and children, I always prefer a takehome assessment. (And, just as an FYI, I'm 36 and a single parent to a young grade-schooler)

I might be biased, in that I feel like I do poorly in the live programming / brainteaser style interviews, but do strongly when I have a takehome assessment. Live programming is like a completely bizzaro-land version of programming, where a real person is staring you down while you type, observing your every interaction, and deciding your fate based on a random 60 minutes of the highest-stress part of your day. ("Oh, you googled a for loop syntax, you are clearly an idiot lying about your experience" when in fact, it's more like, "I get thrown 6 different programming languages every single week, each with similar but slightly varied syntax for every single thing, and having a person stare at me and decide the entire future of my career is a little bit stressful and anxiety-inducing").

With a takehome assessment, I can think about it for a while, I can write it all upfront, I can try a few different implementations and pick the one that feels best, I can accurately and intelligently explain exactly what I did and why I did it, I can talk in detail about the problem and potential tradeoffs. I can wrap the whole thing in nice automated testing, I can setup basic CI/CD for it on GitHub Actions or equivalent. I can demo my commitment to strong well-written clear documentation and dev experience, right in my branch Pull Request -- and all of that will likely be a closer match to what real-world day-to-day work at the new company might be like, than solving your LeetCode brainteaser.

I don't love "unpaid work before getting a job", yes that part sucks. But it sucks less than having a random stranger decide your an idiot, based on watching you sweat for an hour. Even if I'm going to get ultimately rejected anyway, the takehome route still feels better.

Re: The business of takehome assessments

#12
post #4

One of the major problems with take home tests is the rampant cheating. It's been a long time since I've been on the job market - but even a decade ago, I had third-party recruiters who would forward me a take home test... and another successful candidate's solution, "for reference". And even if candidate doesn't get external help, I'm extremely sceptical about time limits. Nothing stops someone spending 6 hours on a…

Before I go any further, broadly speaking, I'm not in favour of take home tests, but not for the reasons you mention.

I did a stint of hiring for a software company over a decade ago where they did use a take home test. Now we did get the odd person cheat on it, but I can think of only a handful of occurrences where that had happened - at least in a way where it had meaningful impact - out of the probably hundreds of people we interviewed.

The take home test was simply there to figure out whether or not it was worth inviting an engineer in for interview, at which point we of course did an in person coding assessment. If you cheat at the take home test, what happens at the interview? You get found out is what happens, and it can lead to quite an awkward conversation. If you don't get found out perhaps it doesn't matter anyway because you've just got through a coding interview anyway. That's not to excuse cheating but to point out that it's perhaps only a risk in terms of technical skill if it's your sole point of assessment of those skills.

But, anyway, as I say: I don't much like take home tests for other reasons. And I don't much like platforms like Codility either (with these I found the signal to noise ratio to be particularly poor). The reason I don't like any of this stuff though is that, if you're hiring, most likely it disadvantages you as an employer versus other companies who don't put candidates through these tests.

Unless you work for a company where everyone wants to work you have to ask yourself this question: why would anyone willingly go through our burdensome and tedious selection process when they can get a job on a similar, or maybe even better, salary elsewhere much more easily?

Re: The business of takehome assessments

#13
post #4

One of the major problems with take home tests is the rampant cheating. It's been a long time since I've been on the job market - but even a decade ago, I had third-party recruiters who would forward me a take home test... and another successful candidate's solution, "for reference". And even if candidate doesn't get external help, I'm extremely sceptical about time limits. Nothing stops someone spending 6 hours on a…

this is exactly why i reject all take homes. There is no way to compete against cheaters.

Re: The business of takehome assessments

#14
post #6

> The majority of the companies I noticed issuing takehomes weren’t your star companies. They weren’t FAANG. They weren’t looking to change the world. They weren’t looking for olympiad champions or kumon alumnis. > Rather, they were the design studios, the lean web development agencies, the mobile dev teams based out of Eastern Europe. Given a team of... let's make up some numbers.... {8} devs working on client proje…

The flip side is that there’s no way I’m doing a “two hour” (really 4-8 hour) take-home if I’m still at the stage where there are 250 candidates. Or 25, even. Maybe three.

Re: The business of takehome assessments

#15
post #4

One of the major problems with take home tests is the rampant cheating. It's been a long time since I've been on the job market - but even a decade ago, I had third-party recruiters who would forward me a take home test... and another successful candidate's solution, "for reference". And even if candidate doesn't get external help, I'm extremely sceptical about time limits. Nothing stops someone spending 6 hours on a…

It's always a good idea to follow up with them in an interview, where you can ask the candidate questions about their implementation. Makes cheating much harder.

Re: The business of takehome assessments

#16
post #8
post #4

One of the major problems with take home tests is the rampant cheating. It's been a long time since I've been on the job market - but even a decade ago, I had third-party recruiters who would forward me a take home test... and another successful candidate's solution, "for reference". And even if candidate doesn't get external help, I'm extremely sceptical about time limits. Nothing stops someone spending 6 hours on a…

> Nothing stops someone spending 6 hours on a "2 hour" take home test, producing a better solution than someone who followed the time limit strictly. Unless you can ... demonstrate you only spent two hours. It's pretty rare you can do that, but... several years back I got a callback on an interview, and they forwarded me the 'coding test' portion. I got it around 1:30p, and I emailed them back the finished product ar…

> maybe I was just a jerk in the interview

I will say that this is something you definitely should not be, especially if it's a larger corp. You should be political, passionate, approachable and friendly. It doesn't matter if you are more technically skilled. It might be even worse for interviewers if you are technically skilled and arrogant about it, because it would make their work lives worse. Even though I appreciate technical skill and passion, I wouldn't hire anyone who was actively arrogant or similar about it. I look to create a team that in theory would be supportive or empathetic towards low performers, although of course preferably we would find a solution to low performers or understand why they are performing low if possible, because ultimately I do want high performing team.

Re: The business of takehome assessments

#17
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nothing stops someone spending 6 hours on a "2 hour" take home test, producing a better solution than someone who followed the time limit strictly. Unless you can ... demonstrate you only spent two hours. It's pretty rare you can do that, but... several years back I got a callback on an interview, and they forwarded me the 'coding test' portion. I got it around 1:30p, and I emailed them back the finished product ar…

> maybe I was just a jerk in the interview I will say that this is something you definitely should not be, especially if it's a larger corp. You should be political, passionate, approachable and friendly. It doesn't matter if you are more technically skilled. It might be even worse for interviewers if you are technically skilled and arrogant about it, because it would make their work lives worse. Even though I apprec…

I certainly don't try to be... and I generally don't think I come across that way (rude, arrogant, etc) but I'm sure I've had my moments unintentionally. There's a limit to how much influence I can have on someone's perception, and I know I've said things in the past that have upset folks without meaning to, or just... knocked me out of the running for a particular technical point of view.

Re: The business of takehome assessments

#18
After reaching my 10 yoe mark, I almost explicitly refuse take home tests. Yes if there was only one company I wanted to work with and I was interviewing with only them, I'll make an exception. Companies interview a lot of candidates to hire someone, as a result of which, you as a candidate have to interview 5-10 companies to get hired and get paid fairly, 15+ if you want to maximize your career + comp. There is no reason I'll spend 40-80 hours on just take home tests alone, considering the fact that the company will still interview you for 4-5 more hours after you satisfactorily finish your take home.

Re: The business of takehome assessments

#19
Having interviewed hundreds of consultants and been interviewed by many and having seen the cheating etc. from all sides I have first hand opinion on this.

Sadly how people recruit is completely broken for most companies that are not FAANG etc. (It is broken for FAANG as well but in a different way).

As I often say "you need to win, not win an argument". Similarly you want candidates that can be good productive members of your team at the salary you are paying and not the candidates who can nail your interview process.

The problem with take home tests is not the cheating. But rather failure of the recruiter to actually evaluate the assignment. Do you care about the end result or do you care about the art of craft ? Do you care about readability of the code or performance of the app ? Is the assignment similar to the work candidate will end up doing at workplace ?

My suggestion generally has been:

1. Look at candidate's past work. Has candidate worked with reputed companies ? 2. Talk with candidate with general technology topics around their work. Something like "what do you like about react?" 3. Give candidate a very simple codesignal test. Nothing to fancy. Say if you want react engineers just test their ability to implement simple components.

This vastly kills a lot of inferior talent in my opinion.

4. Give a very simple problem without any "trick" or "iq test" and ask the candidate to code it in front of you. Also let the candidate use internet, documentation and AI tools.

In this day and age asking candidates NOt to use AI tools like asking a candidate to write code without using keyboard. You want people who can use things like Github copilot.

Re: The business of takehome assessments

#20
post #10

The solution is simple: pay candidates for the estimated time the assignment should take, based on the median rate of the role they're applying for. Pay them regardless if they pass or fail the test. You should be able to avoid grifters looking for handouts if your screening process is any good. But I don't think this type of evaluation is a valuable signal anymore in the age of AI. Anyone could nowadays finish your…

This is exactly what I do. It's rare that someone is required to create something entirely from scratch. Most of what we do as developers is altering an existing system. I want to select for people who can figure out how to do that.

Also it completely eliminates the tool selection and test system portions of the exercise because I pick all of that stuff and make sure anything I don't care about is automated or is out of scope of the solution.

Done correctly you can usually get through it in less than an hour, leaving about 10 or 15 minutes for the candidate to ask me some questions.

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