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The construction of the mafioso social capital and the Sack of Palermo (2023)

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Re: The construction of the mafioso social capital and the Sack of Palermo (2023)

#11

Post by hellerve »

davedx wrote: post #3

Oh no, they built tons of cheap affordable housing. How terrible of them! I’d be interested to hear the viewpoints of Sicilians on this one

I recommend visiting the Ecomuseo in Palermo [1] if you ever have the chance. They examine, among other things, the lasting impact of the subpar building of now mostly crumbling structures by the Mafia that still litter the cities of Sicily.

Yes, the mafia built housing, but it’s not the kind of social housing we might hope for—it’s mostly slum-like. Of course, the city of Palermo is also EXTREMELY densely populated—I read something like the fourth-most densely populated city in Europe in a magazine once, but can’t source that now, so take it with a grain of salt.

Nota bene: I’m not Italian myself; my wife’s family has their roots in Sicily.

[1] https://www.marememoriaviva.it/ (website only (?) in Italian)

Re: The construction of the mafioso social capital and the Sack of Palermo (2023)

#12

Post by skrebbel »

lelanthran wrote: post #8
toyg wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Mafia always enjoyed some support among people who benefit from it, which is why they make this sort of populist move in the first place. That doesn't mean they are as legitimate as a proper democratic government. It's like saying "oh, the local feudal Lord helps us fight bandits!" - yeah, but he can also cut you down in the street without due process, doesn't care about your opinion, and might enforce ius primae…

> It's like saying "oh, the local feudal Lord helps us fight bandits!" It's not exactly the same, because > - yeah, but he can also cut you down in the street without due process, doesn't care about your opinion, and might enforce ius primae noctis, without any recourse. If the mafioso goes too far they lose the support of the locals. I mean, sure, the population has no recourse when some henchman rapes some bride, b…

This is the first pro-mafia comment I read on HN, and of course it’s in “Well Actually,” Normal Form, and I love it

Re: The construction of the mafioso social capital and the Sack of Palermo (2023)

#13

Post by lynx23 »

toyg wrote: post #4
davedx wrote: post #3

Oh no, they built tons of cheap affordable housing. How terrible of them! I’d be interested to hear the viewpoints of Sicilians on this one

The Mafia always enjoyed some support among people who benefit from it, which is why they make this sort of populist move in the first place. That doesn't mean they are as legitimate as a proper democratic government. It's like saying "oh, the local feudal Lord helps us fight bandits!" - yeah, but he can also cut you down in the street without due process, doesn't care about your opinion, and might enforce ius primae…

So, like every goverment, then. "The government always enjoyed some support among people who benefit from it, which is why they make this sort of populist move in the first place." Yes, checks out.

Re: The construction of the mafioso social capital and the Sack of Palermo (2023)

#14

Post by lelanthran »

xandrius wrote: post #9
lelanthran wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's like saying "oh, the local feudal Lord helps us fight bandits!" It's not exactly the same, because > - yeah, but he can also cut you down in the street without due process, doesn't care about your opinion, and might enforce ius primae noctis, without any recourse. If the mafioso goes too far they lose the support of the locals. I mean, sure, the population has no recourse when some henchman rapes some bride, b…

Are you actually trying to argue in support of the mafia?

> Are you actually trying to argue in support of the mafia?

No, I'm saying that it's not exactly the same as fuedal overloads are.

Organised crime are a business, first and foremost, and like all businesses (whether legal or not) focuses on profit.

Re: The construction of the mafioso social capital and the Sack of Palermo (2023)

#15

Post by lelanthran »

skrebbel wrote: post #12
lelanthran wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's like saying "oh, the local feudal Lord helps us fight bandits!" It's not exactly the same, because > - yeah, but he can also cut you down in the street without due process, doesn't care about your opinion, and might enforce ius primae noctis, without any recourse. If the mafioso goes too far they lose the support of the locals. I mean, sure, the population has no recourse when some henchman rapes some bride, b…

This is the first pro-mafia comment I read on HN, and of course it’s in “Well Actually,” Normal Form, and I love it

> This is the first pro-mafia comment I read on HN, and of course it’s in “Well Actually,” Normal Form, and I love it

Which part of this appeared to be pro-mafia to you?

>> It's not exactly the same, because

>> If the mafioso goes too far they lose the support of the locals.

>> I mean, sure, the population has no recourse when some henchman rapes some bride, but the organisation's management usually enforce their rules on their own members rigourously and violently, too.

>> In the case of losing what little support they have with no profit involved, it's not hard to see why these organisations don't actually allow Droit De Signeur.

>> They're a business, first and foremost. Allow, even encourage, violence to increase profits? Sure! Use violence just for kicks? Probably not.

I mean, to me, exactly none of that is pro-mafia.

Re: The construction of the mafioso social capital and the Sack of Palermo (2023)

#16

Post by sparrowInHand »

hellerve wrote: post #11
davedx wrote: post #3

Oh no, they built tons of cheap affordable housing. How terrible of them! I’d be interested to hear the viewpoints of Sicilians on this one

I recommend visiting the Ecomuseo in Palermo [1] if you ever have the chance. They examine, among other things, the lasting impact of the subpar building of now mostly crumbling structures by the Mafia that still litter the cities of Sicily. Yes, the mafia built housing, but it’s not the kind of social housing we might hope for—it’s mostly slum-like. Of course, the city of Palermo is also EXTREMELY densely populated—…

Unpopular but, the south of italy is a middle eastern country, in all metrics.

Re: The construction of the mafioso social capital and the Sack of Palermo (2023)

#17

Post by verisimi »

Simon_ORourke wrote: post #2

Both in Palermo and in Naples, the business activities of the mafia can be categorized as extremely short-sighted profit squeezing, which I suppose is all you might expect from organizations operating mostly outside the law but with a firm grip on their respective societies (a bit like Google/Meta/Tesla I suppose).

... /the government.

Re: The construction of the mafioso social capital and the Sack of Palermo (2023)

#18

Post by sparrowInHand »

lynx23 wrote: post #13
toyg wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Mafia always enjoyed some support among people who benefit from it, which is why they make this sort of populist move in the first place. That doesn't mean they are as legitimate as a proper democratic government. It's like saying "oh, the local feudal Lord helps us fight bandits!" - yeah, but he can also cut you down in the street without due process, doesn't care about your opinion, and might enforce ius primae…

So, like every goverment, then. "The government always enjoyed some support among people who benefit from it, which is why they make this sort of populist move in the first place." Yes, checks out.

Well, if its all equal, why not move to mogadishu?

Re: The construction of the mafioso social capital and the Sack of Palermo (2023)

#19

Post by verisimi »

xandrius wrote: post #10
davedx wrote: post #3

Oh no, they built tons of cheap affordable housing. How terrible of them! I’d be interested to hear the viewpoints of Sicilians on this one

It's just like you have no idea how mafias operate. Cheap affordable housing from a government is absolutely not the same as cheap affordable housing from a criminal organisation.

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