The next hurdle to create distributed social media seems to be distributed likes and follows. Those are the social currencies of today's generation. In a centralized system, you trust the central authority to show the correct number of likes a post got and the correct info who liked a post. Same for number of followers and who follows whom. Do any of these 3 protocols have an approach to do the same in a decentralize…
It is not obvious to me at all that this problem needs to be solved or that it is even a good thing for social networks to provide such stats; but, if it actually somehow is important, it is also a problem that is trivially reduced to the same problem as spam: likes and follows are simply signed messages, not pre-aggregated counts, and if you balk at sending someone a list of a hundred thousand signatures they are tr…
ActivityPub/Nostr/At-Bluesky Compared
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Re: ActivityPub/Nostr/At-Bluesky Compared
#12Earlier quoted context omitted.
It is not obvious to me at all that this problem needs to be solved or that it is even a good thing for social networks to provide such stats; but, if it actually somehow is important, it is also a problem that is trivially reduced to the same problem as spam: likes and follows are simply signed messages, not pre-aggregated counts, and if you balk at sending someone a list of a hundred thousand signatures they are tr…
I wholeheartedly believe that those are anti-features. They're metrics that drive antisocial behavior and make the world a little worse.
Re: ActivityPub/Nostr/At-Bluesky Compared
#13Earlier quoted context omitted.
I wholeheartedly believe that those are anti-features. They're metrics that drive antisocial behavior and make the world a little worse.
You say so on a website that displays the number of likes (here: "points") for every post right on the front page.
Participating in something and trying to discuss how it could be improved when you disagree with it is normal human behavior.
Re: ActivityPub/Nostr/At-Bluesky Compared
#14ActivityPub is ahead, but it feels like a dead end. It has the same issue with Reddit's little fiefdoms: moderators still lord over everyone and control speech, the algorithm, your feed, and your freedom. Nostr and Bluesky's AT protocol are the most promising. I love the truly distributed nature of Nostr, but the ecosystem is hard to get into. Bluesky has strong technical underpinnings and accessibility, but they're…
That's a feature, not a bug. Whatever your preferences, there's an ActivityPub instance with moderation you'll like. Want to be in a liberal thought bubble? It's there. Want nothing but all Trump, all the time? They have that. Only the good things about astrology? Yep. Aggressive blocking of anti-science woo? Sure.
Moderation decisions are made at the instance level, not the network level. There are instances that take a laissez-faire approach. Others are quite heavy handed. Most are somewhere in the middle. Users can pick which sounds best to them and find servers that align with their wishes.
Re: ActivityPub/Nostr/At-Bluesky Compared
#15ActivityPub isn't perfect but still seems better vs putting everything in one basket controlled by big corp (Meta's FB, IG etc).
Re: ActivityPub/Nostr/At-Bluesky Compared
#16ActivityPub is ahead, but it feels like a dead end. It has the same issue with Reddit's little fiefdoms: moderators still lord over everyone and control speech, the algorithm, your feed, and your freedom. Nostr and Bluesky's AT protocol are the most promising. I love the truly distributed nature of Nostr, but the ecosystem is hard to get into. Bluesky has strong technical underpinnings and accessibility, but they're…
> moderators still lord over everyone and control speech, the algorithm, your feed, and your freedom. I can't understand the toxicity of mind that makes people think it's OK to impose others view their own, unwanted points of view. If you're not welcome in a community, join one that would hear you. Why would that be against your "freedom"?
With something like nostr, you are free as a relay operator to block whatever makes you feel uncomfortable, while users can just get that content from some other relay without having to create a new account and move their entire social graph over.
Re: ActivityPub/Nostr/At-Bluesky Compared
#17ActivityPub is ahead, but it feels like a dead end. It has the same issue with Reddit's little fiefdoms: moderators still lord over everyone and control speech, the algorithm, your feed, and your freedom. Nostr and Bluesky's AT protocol are the most promising. I love the truly distributed nature of Nostr, but the ecosystem is hard to get into. Bluesky has strong technical underpinnings and accessibility, but they're…
> moderators still lord over everyone and control speech, the algorithm, your feed, and your freedom. I can't understand the toxicity of mind that makes people think it's OK to impose others view their own, unwanted points of view. If you're not welcome in a community, join one that would hear you. Why would that be against your "freedom"?
Then some instances defederate otherwise innocent instances that don’t have sufficient agreement on all those points, regardless of actual content.
It is kind of tiring and honestly hard to recommend.
Re: ActivityPub/Nostr/At-Bluesky Compared
#18ActivityPub is ahead, but it feels like a dead end. It has the same issue with Reddit's little fiefdoms: moderators still lord over everyone and control speech, the algorithm, your feed, and your freedom. Nostr and Bluesky's AT protocol are the most promising. I love the truly distributed nature of Nostr, but the ecosystem is hard to get into. Bluesky has strong technical underpinnings and accessibility, but they're…
> moderators still lord over everyone and control speech, the algorithm, your feed, and your freedom. I can't understand the toxicity of mind that makes people think it's OK to impose others view their own, unwanted points of view. If you're not welcome in a community, join one that would hear you. Why would that be against your "freedom"?
Re: ActivityPub/Nostr/At-Bluesky Compared
#19Earlier quoted context omitted.
It is not obvious to me at all that this problem needs to be solved or that it is even a good thing for social networks to provide such stats; but, if it actually somehow is important, it is also a problem that is trivially reduced to the same problem as spam: likes and follows are simply signed messages, not pre-aggregated counts, and if you balk at sending someone a list of a hundred thousand signatures they are tr…
Regarding whether it is "a good thing for social networks to provide such stats": It's a central part of social media, even here on HN. Look at the front page. Each post shows 6 pieces of information: Title, Domain, Points, Author, Time, Comments 2 of them = 33% are numeric indicators we trust because we trust HN. Likes and follows are probably two of the main reasons that centralized social media sites have displace…
And, hell, while "author" is the most trivial feature of all to get right as it simply can't be forged in a signature-based system, it is incredible to me how many people on Hacker News actively try to ignore who wrote a comment (not me! the first thing I look at is your name as I think it is actively asocial to dehumanize the people you are communicating with).
I honestly think you will be surprised at how usable the Hacker News feed would still be if you remove everything except the URL itself, and had your client generate a URL preview, and encourage you to try hiding some of these fields for a while using a local browser extension / script / stylesheet.
The real magic of Hacker News -- both of the feed and of the comment thread -- is the algorithmic sorting that makes sense of the cacophony of submissions, not the silly indicators (which are likely serving more as distractions than as beacons) it is bothering to surface to you: those are merely serving the purpose of making its decisions seem credible (and if you go hunting you will realize there are many posts you likely didn't see for many reasons despite having gotten many likes or even comments).
The question then is really: "how can I algorithmically rank content on a decentralized network", and I think that phrasing of the issue unlocks tons of doors that myopically insisting on a scant handful of specific statistics that are merely one of many many inputs to the current system that actually rules your usage of the website uses precludes.
Sometimes, information the user might actively be using to argue with the recommendations is even best hidden from the user: TikTok notably will happily recommend a post from years ago and hides the timestamp from you as people doing manual mental filtering incorrectly deweight the value of old content and/or find it awkward to interact with.
Now, is sorting and filtering in a decentralized system for sure solvable? I don't know... I think it is, and have tons of ideas for how to do it! Yet, I would not be shocked to try really hard and fail, or even to discover some "trivial" (in retrospect) proof that it is impossible. But, either way, one thing I am very confident of is that likes and comments isn't it, as real world systems -- including Facebook and TikTok -- manage to surface tons of interesting content to me that have low numbers of likes: the world simply isn't best sorted by thumbs up.
Re: ActivityPub/Nostr/At-Bluesky Compared
#20From the stats of people who ran their own PDS for their own accounts, it used an less than 1mb of data transfer a day and insignificant amounts of CPU/RAM (less than a 20% spike). But, it will depend on how big your account is, how many followers you have, number of posts you make, etc etc.
In native Bluesky with a default account, they have decentralized the servers so there are maybe around 20-30 servers all on the East Coast of the US. There's currently not much incentive to run your own. The PDS software is fairly new and unless you just wanted to have a non-US host for privacy reasons, you could do so and get away with running it on a RPi or standard VPS no problem. No one has yet started any major instances to rival the primary ones yet, however.