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Male archetypes in fairy tales

sharonblackie.substack.com

11–20 of 91 posts

Re: Male archetypes in fairy tales

#11
Keep in mind that masculinity and femininity are constructed - they only exist because some properties associated with each other. Because of its construction, its an opinion, not a fact. What one considers masculine or feminine is basically arbitrary and random and everyone is free to disagree.

An evil spirit could claim that none of the mentioned archetypes is gender-specific at all and they would not be provable wrong.

Re: Male archetypes in fairy tales

#12

> I hate it more than I can say when I read books or listen to talks and performances by men who tell and ‘interpret’ women’s stories, and who are kind enough then to suggest to us ways in which our lives as women might be improved. I’ve never wanted to do the same to them What a weird take on things: let's apply neat little discrete labels to every person and pretend that the experiences of each particular combinati…

As a heterosexual immigrant woman, the two people in the world who understand me best are men. And also not immigrants. Indeed, our personal experiences have rather little overlap, but they understand me best because their thought processes are similar to mine and because they are thoughtful, empathetic people. I'll take their life advice over anyone's.

Could you elaborate on why this is the case?

Re: Male archetypes in fairy tales

#13

Keep in mind that masculinity and femininity are constructed - they only exist because some properties associated with each other. Because of its construction, its an opinion, not a fact. What one considers masculine or feminine is basically arbitrary and random and everyone is free to disagree. An evil spirit could claim that none of the mentioned archetypes is gender-specific at all and they would not be provable w…

How could it be a construct of our modern times if their themes are consistent throughout history of humankind? Delving into mythology and legends which explore the nature of our kind, the description of male and female is fairly consistent.

You might as well say "everything is subjective, there is no truth".

Re: Male archetypes in fairy tales

#14
post #9

> I hate it more than I can say when I read books or listen to talks and performances by men who tell and ‘interpret’ women’s stories, and who are kind enough then to suggest to us ways in which our lives as women might be improved. I’ve never wanted to do the same to them What a weird take on things: let's apply neat little discrete labels to every person and pretend that the experiences of each particular combinati…

> What a weird take on things: let's apply neat little discrete labels to every person and pretend that the experiences of each particular combination of labels is so radically different from everybody else's that we can't possibly learn anything from anybody else. This is called "intersectionality", a term coined by Kimberlé Crenshaw in the late 1980s but some of the key concepts date back to the work of bell hooks…

There is some nuance here. As I understand it, intersectionality simply highlights that the experiences of a collective built from the intersection of several traits can be quite different to the experience of an adjacent collective. E.g. the queer descendants of Asian immigrants may often share experiences that are quite distinct from those of queer black folks.

I have no problem with that. My point of contention is whether or not it is okay to shush a person talking about a collective simply because they aren't members of it. Or more broadly, whether it is okay to dismiss, silence and minimize the struggles of a collective because of some twisted notion that they deserve it.

Why is it that we all agree that an old "boys' club" is repugnant, a "whites-only" association is disgustingly racist, but a "girls-only" lessons or a "black only" show are things to celebrate? We demand diversity and inclusivity, but somehow the more "able-bodied neurotypical white heterosexual male" checkboxes you tick, the less we care about your opinion and well-being, and thus the less important it is to include you. (And I only tick two of those)

Re: Male archetypes in fairy tales

#15

Keep in mind that masculinity and femininity are constructed - they only exist because some properties associated with each other. Because of its construction, its an opinion, not a fact. What one considers masculine or feminine is basically arbitrary and random and everyone is free to disagree. An evil spirit could claim that none of the mentioned archetypes is gender-specific at all and they would not be provable w…

How could it be a construct of our modern times if their themes are consistent throughout history of humankind? Delving into mythology and legends which explore the nature of our kind, the description of male and female is fairly consistent. You might as well say "everything is subjective, there is no truth".

That something is widely popular for millenia does not prove its truthfulness. Mythology and legends are still fiction.

> You might as well say "everything is subjective, there is no truth".

Strawman. I'm criticising this specific kind of thing as fiction, not everything in general.

Re: Male archetypes in fairy tales

#16

> I hate it more than I can say when I read books or listen to talks and performances by men who tell and ‘interpret’ women’s stories, and who are kind enough then to suggest to us ways in which our lives as women might be improved. I’ve never wanted to do the same to them What a weird take on things: let's apply neat little discrete labels to every person and pretend that the experiences of each particular combinati…

I agree, it saddens me that they feel they can't (or maybe shouldn't) write about men because you are not one. As a man I can only learn more from the different perspective they would bring. If only one perspective is offered we all lose and in the past we lost a lot because of this.

Re: Male archetypes in fairy tales

#17

Keep in mind that masculinity and femininity are constructed - they only exist because some properties associated with each other. Because of its construction, its an opinion, not a fact. What one considers masculine or feminine is basically arbitrary and random and everyone is free to disagree. An evil spirit could claim that none of the mentioned archetypes is gender-specific at all and they would not be provable w…

How could it be a construct of our modern times if their themes are consistent throughout history of humankind? Delving into mythology and legends which explore the nature of our kind, the description of male and female is fairly consistent. You might as well say "everything is subjective, there is no truth".

Depends what you mean by consistent. You don't have to go back too far before things get, well, different enough that they can be confusing to the modern observer. Obvious example: early 19th century dandies. These tend to get read today as kind of effeminate, unmasculine, because that's kind of the _modern_ view of a man who's obsessed with fashion, grooming, etc (or, at least, it was the late 20th century view; this one's actually beginning to swing again), but they _absolutely_ were not seen that way at the time.

Re: Male archetypes in fairy tales

#18
post #3

> Well, if the men want their stories, let them go and find them She then goes on to mention the first(ish) man to do so, Robert Bly. The New York times, for his obiturary, wrote that Bly "started a controversial men’s movement with a best seller that called for a restoration of primal male audacity." Which underlines why most men don't want to do it and why actually it is better if women lead this study at this curr…

I just don't understand the controversy around this book (although I know nothing of the movement people often speak about). For me the book gave me great insight in to becoming a man. Something I and most men do by accident and not by design. Crucially I learned how I as an older man have a responsibility to guide younger men when they are a bit lost.

Re: Male archetypes in fairy tales

#19

> I hate it more than I can say when I read books or listen to talks and performances by men who tell and ‘interpret’ women’s stories, and who are kind enough then to suggest to us ways in which our lives as women might be improved. I’ve never wanted to do the same to them What a weird take on things: let's apply neat little discrete labels to every person and pretend that the experiences of each particular combinati…

That's a very malicious way to interpret what the article is talking about in hundreds of words.

Re: Male archetypes in fairy tales

#20
Why are people so fixated on gender? We all mostly want the same things, feel the same things and do the same things, both good and bad. Individual variety overwhelms slight difference in averages between the groups.

When it comes to anything except children, "I'm a man" is no more meaningful than "I'm a Libra". Objectively meaningless, subjectively can screw you up but only if you believe in zodiac.

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