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You can't leak users' data if you don't hold it

seancoates.com

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Re: You can't leak users' data if you don't hold it

#11

Post by travisjungroth »

scoates wrote: post #6
forgotmyinfo wrote: post #4

What happens when Matter gets acquired? I'm sorry, but all this self back-patting is a bit too little too late for this jaded guy, especially because a thousand other companies have made the same promises in cheery blog posts, before something happens and my social security number winds up on a sticky note on some hacker's monitor in Belarus. Hell, I've worked for companies where I was forced to break users' trust be…

Hello. Agreed that we need comprehensive privacy reform. You should probably read the article, though. (-; I have access to everything (on the tech side) at Matter, and if you put your social security number into the app, I wouldn't be able to access it to write it on a sticky note. That's the whole point. PS I'm also old and jaded. (-;

I don’t think the article really answers this. All these decisions you’ve made to not store data are decisions that you could unmake.

To put it concretely: if everyone at Matter tomorrow became malevolent and wanted user data, what happens? For example, if you push an app that sends home my private text, how would I know? Could you?

Re: You can't leak users' data if you don't hold it

#12

Post by Terr_ »

jmward01 wrote: post #10

I agree with the core idea, avoid saving info so you can't ever leak it. I personally think our legal framework should be based on consequences to encourage this mentality more. If you are hacked I don't care even a little that you did everything right, I just care that my information got taken. You should be held liable even if you did what the industry thought was right.

Disclosure liability insurance, low premiums if there was nothing to leak.

Of course, that assumes a different world where companies actually pay for screwing up in the first place.

Re: You can't leak users' data if you don't hold it

#13

Post by haltIncomplete »

okeuro49 wrote: post #2

> Our first product is an iOS app designed to help you capture the best moments in your life I have increasingly come to the belief that mediating our life experiences and social interactions through apps isn't good for us. Your website "Matter" [1], to be honest, seems completely dystopian to me and an indication of all that's wrong with the relationship between technology and society. [1] https://matter.xyz/

[flagged]

Re: You can't leak users' data if you don't hold it

#14

Post by hn_throwaway_99 »

forgotmyinfo wrote: post #4

What happens when Matter gets acquired? I'm sorry, but all this self back-patting is a bit too little too late for this jaded guy, especially because a thousand other companies have made the same promises in cheery blog posts, before something happens and my social security number winds up on a sticky note on some hacker's monitor in Belarus. Hell, I've worked for companies where I was forced to break users' trust be…

While I agree with your sentiment, after re-reading the post and looking at some of the blog posts, I think you missed a major point, that being:

1. You can't leak what you don't have.

That is, even if the company gets bought out or is hacked, if they don't have the data, there is nothing to leak. This point is also at least partially enforced by another point from the post:

2. Advanced app users can audit their network traffic from the app

Now, granted, I wouldn't expect many users to do this, but highlighting it at least serves as a warning that it should be harder for the app to surreptitiously change what is sent to the server (and to emphasize, I know this can be worked/hacked around, but I don't think working around this could ever be done with plausible deniability).

Given the fact that companies and products jettison their high-minded policies as soon as it becomes economically inconvenient, the only other thing I'd recommend for the author is to have a good, simple export tool, e.g. something that dumps all the "memories" to a directory or PDF file. The post talks about backup and restore, but if I were a potential user I'd like to know that if the company does kick their privacy policy to the curb at some point that I could get all of the investment and data out of the app without needing to continue to rely on the app for at least the base data I put into it.

Re: You can't leak users' data if you don't hold it

#15

Post by A4ET8a8uTh0 »

jmward01 wrote: post #10

I agree with the core idea, avoid saving info so you can't ever leak it. I personally think our legal framework should be based on consequences to encourage this mentality more. If you are hacked I don't care even a little that you did everything right, I just care that my information got taken. You should be held liable even if you did what the industry thought was right.

Obviously, IANAL

In a sense, that gradation is present for other offenses. You kill a man by accident? It may end up being involuntary manslaughter. You kill that same man with malice and planning? It charge will move to aggravated and premeditated murder.

At the end of the day, a life was taken and some level of judicial review should take place. That does not appear to happen for 'hack' events.

Re: You can't leak users' data if you don't hold it

#17

Post by hn_throwaway_99 »

okeuro49 wrote: post #2

> Our first product is an iOS app designed to help you capture the best moments in your life I have increasingly come to the belief that mediating our life experiences and social interactions through apps isn't good for us. Your website "Matter" [1], to be honest, seems completely dystopian to me and an indication of all that's wrong with the relationship between technology and society. [1] https://matter.xyz/

While I actually liked the primary point of the author regarding privacy controls, and I feel some of the commenters here are being a bit harsh regarding tangential issues or missing some of the crux of what he wrote, I also so strongly agree with your point that I couldn't let it go.

Apps aren't going to make you happier. If you want to be happier, go for a walk outside and go hang out with your friends, in person.

Re: You can't leak users' data if you don't hold it

#18

Post by Retric »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #17
okeuro49 wrote: post #2

> Our first product is an iOS app designed to help you capture the best moments in your life I have increasingly come to the belief that mediating our life experiences and social interactions through apps isn't good for us. Your website "Matter" [1], to be honest, seems completely dystopian to me and an indication of all that's wrong with the relationship between technology and society. [1] https://matter.xyz/

While I actually liked the primary point of the author regarding privacy controls, and I feel some of the commenters here are being a bit harsh regarding tangential issues or missing some of the crux of what he wrote, I also so strongly agree with your point that I couldn't let it go. Apps aren't going to make you happier. If you want to be happier, go for a walk outside and go hang out with your friends, in person.

That assumes quite a bit of freedom that may not exist for many people.

An Uber driver waiting for their next passenger isn’t able to go hang out with friends, but they can play on their phone, or read a book.

Re: You can't leak users' data if you don't hold it

#19

Post by jacurtis »

forgotmyinfo wrote: post #4

What happens when Matter gets acquired? I'm sorry, but all this self back-patting is a bit too little too late for this jaded guy, especially because a thousand other companies have made the same promises in cheery blog posts, before something happens and my social security number winds up on a sticky note on some hacker's monitor in Belarus. Hell, I've worked for companies where I was forced to break users' trust be…

> before something happens and my social security number winds up on a sticky note on some hacker's monitor in Belarus

Isn't the point of the article that they can't leak something they don't have?

So if I never get your social security number from you, then I have zero risk of leaking it or exposing it to hackers. I can't give them (intentionally or unintentionally) something that I don't possess.

The author says:

> Given these criteria and extremes, we decided that our best course of action is to just never have our users' private data.

---

To your next question on what happens if Matter is acquired. Well the app might stop working or change how it works or have new logo in the corner, but your data never left your device, so you don't really have to worry about it being leaked to Belarus.

Re: You can't leak users' data if you don't hold it

#20

Post by ChrisMarshallNY »

This aligns pretty well, with my own PoV.

I can tell you that it has not made me popular with my coworkers. This whole blasted industry has become completely drenched in PID harvesting, and incredibly casual treatment of said PID. My solitaire apps are constantly trying to get me to sign up for leaderboards and challenges.

I have been denying pig-butchering (most likely) signups for our new app, at about a 30% rate. It's pretty damn sobering (each signup is manually vetted. We don't really care about quantity). We are restricted to US, Canada, and India, and have barely made any efforts to promote the app, but the scammers jumped all over it.

Right now, they are primitive (we have a specific demographic that is hard to fake), but I expect that to change.

I have just come to accept that baddies will get in, so it's important that the liquor cabinet be empty, if they try raiding it.

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