Germany's solar panel industry, once a leader, is getting squeezed • Hacker News Board

Re: Germany's solar panel industry, once a leader, is getting squeezed

#11

Post by fy20 » Mon, Mar 25, 2024, 1:29 PM UTC

balderdash wrote: post #6

hcfman wrote: post #2

I still don't see this as being a valid reason for disavantaging the planet. Like they did in the EU when the Belgiam politicial managed to get a tax imposed to make solar panels more expensive from Chain. One would expect Germanies business to be thriving now. But to make solar panels artificially more expensive for any reason at all is extreme folly for the planet if anyone cares about that.

But you’re not comparing the same products, for example how much more should one pay to have a product not produced with slave labour?

I am in Lithuania (EU) and when I had solar panels installed on my house, I got them installed and manufactured by a local company - whose factory is less than 10 miles from my house. I got quotes from a few companies, and this was was more expensive, but it was only around €1000 (10%) more than the cheapest company which offered Chinese panels. I figured if I need to make a warranty claim in 20 years time, this company is likely to still be around, plus I'm supporting the local economy.

Its not just assembly of panels, the solar cells are also made in Lithuania (this company started out creating optical parts). Last year they branched out and launched their own line of residential batteries (not sure if the cells are made in-house) and they announced plans to build a new PV factory in Italy.

Admitidely our labour is a bit cheaper than Germany, but it's not much, and the cost of doing business here in general is higher. If it can be done here, I don't see why it can't be done in Germany.

https://www.solitek.eu/en

Re: Germany's solar panel industry, once a leader, is getting squeezed

#12

Post by achates » Mon, Mar 25, 2024, 1:29 PM UTC

_Microft wrote: post #10

roenxi wrote: post #5

Germany's energy production is below 1970s levels and their per capita figures are in a grim state [0]. As with much of Europe, it makes for worrying reading. It would be extremely impressive if they can remain a manufacturing leader through this. If there is less energy, someone will have to use less energy. As far as I can tell that means either compromising living standards or giving up some heavy manufacturing. I…

Add a few other countries to the list and see how their curves look almost the same as Germany's... (The situation is not much different on the other graphs) https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/per-capita-energy-use?tab... Edit: Here's the same (semi-randomly chosen) set of countries, applied to the same article (see parents [0]-link) in full: https://ourworldindata.org/energy/country/germany?country=DE...

The US has also lost its lead in manufacturing during the same time period.

Re: Germany's solar panel industry, once a leader, is getting squeezed

#13

Post by z7 » Mon, Mar 25, 2024, 1:30 PM UTC

hcfman wrote: post #2

I still don't see this as being a valid reason for disavantaging the planet. Like they did in the EU when the Belgiam politicial managed to get a tax imposed to make solar panels more expensive from Chain. One would expect Germanies business to be thriving now. But to make solar panels artificially more expensive for any reason at all is extreme folly for the planet if anyone cares about that.

What if higher energy prices in Germany lead to increased outsourcing to countries with fewer environmental regulations, causing a net negative environmental impact?

Re: Germany's solar panel industry, once a leader, is getting squeezed

#14

Post by scotty79 » Mon, Mar 25, 2024, 1:30 PM UTC

When EU was faced with insurmountable competition in the global food market they set up common agricultural policy and straight up fueled their agriculture with tax money since then making EU number one global exporter of food and beverages.

I wonder what obstacles there are for doing the exactly same in another key sector that is manufacturing means of energy production.

And chip manufacturing in the future probably.

If the obstacle to competitiveness is the high cost of labor due to European people being so rich it's only fair to alleviate the problem by using the tax money. It already worked for agriculture.

Re: Germany's solar panel industry, once a leader, is getting squeezed

#15

Post by dependsontheq » Mon, Mar 25, 2024, 1:31 PM UTC

roenxi wrote: post #5

Germany's energy production is below 1970s levels and their per capita figures are in a grim state [0]. As with much of Europe, it makes for worrying reading. It would be extremely impressive if they can remain a manufacturing leader through this. If there is less energy, someone will have to use less energy. As far as I can tell that means either compromising living standards or giving up some heavy manufacturing. I…

It really makes no sense to look at per capita figures this way. I am driving an electric car in Germany now and I built a new home with better insulation and I have LED lights. My per capita figures went way down, I am also taking my cargo bike in the city everywhere, so my per capita figures went down again.

There's a very relevant question about the viability of energy intensive industries in Germany, but even that is dependent on energy source. A lot of industries are switching to electric heating that will also lead to lower per capita energy use.

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/energy-intensity?tab=char...

Re: Germany's solar panel industry, once a leader, is getting squeezed

#16

Post by ramshanker » Mon, Mar 25, 2024, 1:32 PM UTC

To me, solar panels are very simplified stuffs compared to say cars, machinery etc. At its core, solar panels are Billions-and-Billions of repetitive patterns of very few basic ingredients. So, whoever is good at scaling the manufacturing will win. Even if the scaled-out panel has efficiency few % lower than state of art.

Re: Germany's solar panel industry, once a leader, is getting squeezed

#17

Post by sinuhe69 » Mon, Mar 25, 2024, 1:34 PM UTC

roenxi wrote: post #5

Germany's energy production is below 1970s levels and their per capita figures are in a grim state [0]. As with much of Europe, it makes for worrying reading. It would be extremely impressive if they can remain a manufacturing leader through this. If there is less energy, someone will have to use less energy. As far as I can tell that means either compromising living standards or giving up some heavy manufacturing. I…

That does not mean they produced less energy but a sign of much higher energy efficiency, speaks better processing and technology.

It’s the same for all advanced nations: UK, Japan, USA etc.

Re: Germany's solar panel industry, once a leader, is getting squeezed

#18

Post by r00fus » Mon, Mar 25, 2024, 1:35 PM UTC

roenxi wrote: post #5

Germany's energy production is below 1970s levels and their per capita figures are in a grim state [0]. As with much of Europe, it makes for worrying reading. It would be extremely impressive if they can remain a manufacturing leader through this. If there is less energy, someone will have to use less energy. As far as I can tell that means either compromising living standards or giving up some heavy manufacturing. I…

A lot of the industrial power use was built on the back of cheap natural gas from Russia - that got cut off after the Ukraine war.

Re: Germany's solar panel industry, once a leader, is getting squeezed

#19

Post by jcfrei » Mon, Mar 25, 2024, 1:35 PM UTC

I'm not convinced that the US approach with heavy protectionism is a good idea in the specific case of solar panels. It's a pretty standardized product and if another country is willing to subsidize the European consumer with cheap panels - where's the harm? It's not an incredibly sophisticated product like chips manufacturing - where if we suddenly needed to manufacture entirely on our own we would be completely unable to for more than a decade. As some of the interviewed people in the article allude: We're probably better off investing the money saved on those solar panels into other parts of the economy.

Re: Germany's solar panel industry, once a leader, is getting squeezed

#20

Post by 0xQSL » Mon, Mar 25, 2024, 1:36 PM UTC

roenxi wrote: post #5

Germany's energy production is below 1970s levels and their per capita figures are in a grim state [0]. As with much of Europe, it makes for worrying reading. It would be extremely impressive if they can remain a manufacturing leader through this. If there is less energy, someone will have to use less energy. As far as I can tell that means either compromising living standards or giving up some heavy manufacturing. I…

Primary energy consumption isn't a good indicator for this, as it also includes lost energy. If you replace a 50% efficiency coal power plant with wind or solar you'd reduce the primary energy by half but could still get the same amount of used electricity.