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New vuln in Apple M-series allowing secret keys extraction can't be patched

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Re: New vuln in Apple M-series allowing secret keys extraction can't be patched

#11

Post by electric_mayhem »

madsbuch wrote: post #9
EtienneK wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As opposed to what else? Please elaborate.

Using multiple devices: Credit cards for payment, instead og apple pay. A camera for taking pictures, instead of a camera app, a notebook to write notes, instead of an app. From my perspective the original comment is not rocket science?

I learned from another commenter on HN when a post asks low-effort questions where the answer is common sense or implicitly understood, it’s most likely a bot or troll or shill. Best not to engage with them.

Re: New vuln in Apple M-series allowing secret keys extraction can't be patched

#14

Post by midtake »

> The threat resides in the chips’ data memory-dependent prefetcher, a hardware optimization that predicts the memory addresses of data that running code is likely to access in the near future.

Are we nearing any sort of consensus that any form of speculation is bad? Is there a fundamentally secure way to do it?

Re: New vuln in Apple M-series allowing secret keys extraction can't be patched

#15

Post by SV_BubbleTime »

midtake wrote: post #14

> The threat resides in the chips’ data memory-dependent prefetcher, a hardware optimization that predicts the memory addresses of data that running code is likely to access in the near future. Are we nearing any sort of consensus that any form of speculation is bad? Is there a fundamentally secure way to do it?

Isn’t the issue more akin to use after free? If the instructions and memory were wiped on prediction path failure wouldn’t that help?

Re: New vuln in Apple M-series allowing secret keys extraction can't be patched

#16

Post by Kluggy »

VeejayRampay wrote: post #2

if this is confirmed I'm really interested into how exactly Apple will somehow deflect this and make it vanish like they somehow always manage to do with the myriad of issues they're facing over and over

It’s a total non issue for the majority of folks. It requires local access and takes hours under very specific conditions that don’t apply to most people. How often do you run a server that will run arbitrary crypto operations on attacker controlled inputs?

Plus all the secrets in the Secure Enclave are immune to this attack, so your FileVault keys and your Apple Pay cards and all that jazz are completely safe.

It sucks that it exists, and crypto libraries that run on the platform outside of the Secure Enclave will get slightly slower, but no one will notice.

Re: New vuln in Apple M-series allowing secret keys extraction can't be patched

#17

Post by AnthonyMouse »

aargh_aargh wrote: post #5
dalke wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It definitely supports my belief that centralizing identity, payment, and apps into a single device is a fundamentally flawed security model.

Can you elaborate what you mean? I may be misunderstanding what you intended but how do you use traditional means of payment (credit card) without an identity? How do you check your email without identity?

The premise is that you keep a separate device with the sensitive stuff on it (e.g. the chip in your physical credit card, a physical ID badge), and then you can't click on a link in your email or go to the wrong web page and compromise that data because the device you use for email or browsing never has it to begin with.

Re: New vuln in Apple M-series allowing secret keys extraction can't be patched

#18

Post by Angostura »

VeejayRampay wrote: post #2

if this is confirmed I'm really interested into how exactly Apple will somehow deflect this and make it vanish like they somehow always manage to do with the myriad of issues they're facing over and over

I imagine something like a software framework that can be called if properly secure crypto is needed at the expense of performance

Re: New vuln in Apple M-series allowing secret keys extraction can't be patched

#19

Post by black_puppydog »

SV_BubbleTime wrote: post #15
midtake wrote: post #14

> The threat resides in the chips’ data memory-dependent prefetcher, a hardware optimization that predicts the memory addresses of data that running code is likely to access in the near future. Are we nearing any sort of consensus that any form of speculation is bad? Is there a fundamentally secure way to do it?

Isn’t the issue more akin to use after free? If the instructions and memory were wiped on prediction path failure wouldn’t that help?

nope. the side effects (which can be access times in case of non-failure, or voltage changes, or or or...) would still happen

Re: New vuln in Apple M-series allowing secret keys extraction can't be patched

#20

Post by junon »

Angostura wrote: post #18
VeejayRampay wrote: post #2

if this is confirmed I'm really interested into how exactly Apple will somehow deflect this and make it vanish like they somehow always manage to do with the myriad of issues they're facing over and over

I imagine something like a software framework that can be called if properly secure crypto is needed at the expense of performance

Like a TPM?
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