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Gamification is not entirely bullshit

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11–20 of 35 posts

Re: Gamification is not entirely bullshit

#11

In a more meta way, just about any innovation goes through a 2-steps forward, 1-step back cycle. The 1-step back is always due to wide-scale adoption where the original message is somewhat lost in translation, but as a whole actually moves things forward (ie. agile 'methodology'). I think when it comes to gamification it's perhaps better to reframe it as a more targeted engagement structure. If you think about how bi…

> I think when it comes to gamification it's perhaps better to reframe it as a more targeted engagement structure. If you think about how big the actual video game industry is, how much people are _paying_ to solve problems, that there could be a better way to flip that script, because they are in fact doing work in the guise of entertainment. ---- Disagree. Play is distinct from work because it is responsibility fre…

I up-voted you because I like you directly teasing out this point.

This is what I meant by flipping the script. It's just a matter of perception, and that itself can be changed. It shifts with culture. If you think work is a chore then it will be a chore. If you think it is fun then it will be that, at least some of the time. If innovations come around that make it more fun regardless, culture will shift where less will think of it as a chore. These things build upon themselves.

Keep in mind play is not responsibility-free - it has an associated time/opportunity cost. Taking a trip around Europe for a couple weeks, I'd say that's great. The experience can be life-changing... it can bring alot of value for the time spent. Being locked in a room playing some online game for a few weeks... not so great. It might be fun to some degree, but it can be deleterious for one's health, personal relationships, work life, etc. It can actually be harmful.

As a working engineer for the past dozen years I can agree that many times work is a chore. But, and this is a big but, every once in awhile I get a project that is so challenging, so meaty, so impactful that it is far more fun than anything else I can imagine doing. Those projects are the kinds of things I stay at work late for, when I get home even VPN to the office to continue working until I pass out, then get in early to the office because I can't wait to get back to it. YMMV, but I think quite a few HN folk can relate. Some people this might describe their job entirely. The gamification is implicit in the work itself.

I think there's a huge industry waiting to be tapped here, and once it finds its footing human productivity will go up a few notches. The biggest problem is what we currently have is a bit cheesy and too obvious, perhaps to the point where it makes the user feel foolish/duped. That needs to be overcome.

Re: Gamification is not entirely bullshit

#12
post #9
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With gamification of the workplace in particular, there seems to be a repeating cycle. Each cycle does come with some shifts in focus, but it seems mostly implicit ones, without a lot of reflection. I've been doing some preliminary research trying to track down each of the cycles and how they relate, but the fact that so much of it is ephemeral and buzzword-heavy, and the studies are done by self-interested people wi…

I believe this phenomenon it's characteristic of highly interdiciplinary areas, mostly practical and technical but with a strong component of humanism. The people that want to do work in industry tend to gravitate to some specific fields. And half a decade in managment or engineering school can't teach you the history of philosophy, anthropology, sociology or psychology. I believe this to be the reason why "design" i…

I think that's definitely part of it, but I think there may be a bit of deliberate amnesia as well, out of a desire to portray something as totally new, and perhaps to avoid any unwanted historical baggage.

You also see this in "serious games" and its variants. Even Al Gore was recently talking about how the future of videogames is that maybe they'll be used for things like education, too, not just entertainment. Sure, I even buy that. But that's what everyone was saying in the Apple ][ era also! It's not just about credit, but I think we lose something from the amnesia: some of the Apple ][ games were actually better uses of game mechanics for education than much of the fairly shallow stuff being promoted more recently, and we can even learn something from the examples that were more mixed successes (though admittedly there was a lot of bad "edutainment", too).

Re: Gamification is not entirely bullshit

#13

Off topic, but that inline 'tweet' button to tweet a choice quote from the article was an interesting touch. I hadn't seen this technique before.

I think it would be even more awesome if the tweet button was even more inline with the text, almost like a citation link in wikipedia, except you could make it an actual twitter bird character!

Re: Gamification is not entirely bullshit

#15
"people were rating thousands of deals for free to get on an anonymous leaderboard in a small game universe"

This was something I observed on a project of my own (albeit slightly differently), and it was a double-edged sword.

On the one hand, these people would increase their activity on the app so as to get more points and rank higher. It wasn't long before we got people trying to game the system (we didn't do a great deal to prevent it, there was nothing at all clever about our implementation), or trying to spam a few of our API endpoints.

The result of this was the impression of increased popularity. Our counters would rise, and we'd look busier. Score.

On the other hand, we got a massive bump in superfluous activity and little to no insight into real user behaviour (other than suggestions we had a bunch of spammers).

This created an unusual situation where we didn't want to block the spammers, because it made us look good. But we wanted to block the spammers, because they were spamming us to get on the leaderboard (which offered financial incentives for placing highly on).

But, other than that, this sort of 'gamification' was, to someone who'd never implemented or truly observed it, a revealing insight into what lengths some people will go to just to see their name at the top of a table, or on a page as the last active user, or whatever.

I think I find my own experience has a fair bit in common with the author of this article's.

Re: Gamification is not entirely bullshit

#16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think when it comes to gamification it's perhaps better to reframe it as a more targeted engagement structure. If you think about how big the actual video game industry is, how much people are _paying_ to solve problems, that there could be a better way to flip that script, because they are in fact doing work in the guise of entertainment. ---- Disagree. Play is distinct from work because it is responsibility fre…

I up-voted you because I like you directly teasing out this point. This is what I meant by flipping the script. It's just a matter of perception, and that itself can be changed. It shifts with culture. If you think work is a chore then it will be a chore. If you think it is fun then it will be that, at least some of the time. If innovations come around that make it more fun regardless, culture will shift where less w…

For the vast majority of people work is always a chore. It's a commodity you use to barter with your employer; in exchange you receive money that allows you to live.

You argue that sometimes work is "fun". I think a more accurate description is that work can sometimes be engaging. Like when you're presented with a problem that's right at the edge of your abilities but not out of reach. Yet it's still work. Unlike play, work carries with it stress and responsibility. There are consequences if you screw up. Worse if you stop entirely. None of these are true for play.

Gamification is bullshit because it encourages the perception that these differences don't exist or that they don't matter. It's a flat out lie. Work is not play. Accept it. Move on.

Re: Gamification is not entirely bullshit

#17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I up-voted you because I like you directly teasing out this point. This is what I meant by flipping the script. It's just a matter of perception, and that itself can be changed. It shifts with culture. If you think work is a chore then it will be a chore. If you think it is fun then it will be that, at least some of the time. If innovations come around that make it more fun regardless, culture will shift where less w…

For the vast majority of people work is always a chore. It's a commodity you use to barter with your employer; in exchange you receive money that allows you to live. You argue that sometimes work is "fun". I think a more accurate description is that work can sometimes be engaging. Like when you're presented with a problem that's right at the edge of your abilities but not out of reach. Yet it's still work. Unlike pla…

What others perceive as work can certainly be play. For example, if I've saved enough money in my rainy day fund then there are no consequences for ceasing 'work', so perhaps by your reasoning what seems to be work could really be play to me.

I wish my rainy day fund were that big.

Re: Gamification is not entirely bullshit

#18
Gamification is bullshit by design. Gameful mechanics may not be, but we're not there yet.

Point 1 is that Zichermann (who wrote Games-Based Marketing) misrepresents the research into motivation. Whether this is maliciousness or incompetence is up for debate (personally I think the latter with a dose of arrogance). You can see Deturding shred his O'Reilly book, where he goes into this in a lot of detail [1]. One point that is made in the blog post is that most people are socializers, according to Bartle player types. Nick Yee has already shown those player types to be largely useless outside of MUDs, and Bartle never claimed them to be otherwise. In addition, there is no evidence that most people are socializers, and Zichermann doesn't cite this claim. I've not been able to find anyone who's tracked down any research which shows that this is true.

It's odd that the author mentions Pink's Drive at the end, as it's pretty much the anti-thesis of Zichermann. Drive advocates intrinsic motivation, Zichermann is all about extrinsic. If you don't get a trinket, it isn't worth doing. Extrinsic motivation erodes intrinsic motivation. And that's why Bogost slams gamification in the first place: the trinkets you get are valueless, and present no expense to the company. At least frequent flier mile rewards do something.

Point 2 is that this post makes no mention of the quality of interaction. When you play with small percentages of large absolute numbers, you're going to find a small minority of people who respond to this. Enough to fill a leaderboard. But what are they doing? Are they really rating stuff? Are they just hitting 5 stars on everything? We know that HITs in the Mechanical Turk suffer from poor interactions, and those people are getting paid (an extrinsic reward worth more than a leaderboard place, no?). What about the other 99% that aren't on the leaderboard?

Point 3 is that, as gradstudent pointed out, context is highly important when discerning work from play. The research shows that artists, for example, make better work when they aren't being paid. Even if you change nothing in the environment but making the piece contracted, the quality of the work suffers. People know when they're working and when they aren't (this was in Drive). A leaderboard in Space Invaders might be fun, but a leaderboard at work is a really good way for middle management to find the worst 10% of performers, and becomes a tool for control, and people recognize this instantly.

So yes, gamification is bullshit. It's so much bullshit, that Jane McGonigal, who popularized the use of such things, has had to back away from the term as it's so poisonous, and she's using "gameful" instead.

What this all came about from was "People play games more so than doing other things, why is that?" Gamification took all the wrong elements. Games are all about feeding intrinsic motivation with tight feedback loops. Self-determination theory and Reiss' 16 Intrinsic Motivations provide much better frameworks for understanding games. Rigby and Ryan's Glued to Games looks at SDT, and Radoff's Game On has a section of the 16 motivations.

For anyone interested in achieving the stated goals of gamification, but is concerned on how to do it right, should probably read Radoff. It's the most honest, and legitimate, treatment of the subject I have yet found, by someone who actually wears the game designer t-shirt and the businessman suit with equal comfort.

[1]http://gamification-research.org/2011/09/a-quick-buck-by-cop...

Re: Gamification is not entirely bullshit

#19

Gamification is bullshit by design. Gameful mechanics may not be, but we're not there yet. Point 1 is that Zichermann (who wrote Games-Based Marketing) misrepresents the research into motivation. Whether this is maliciousness or incompetence is up for debate (personally I think the latter with a dose of arrogance). You can see Deturding shred his O'Reilly book, where he goes into this in a lot of detail [1]. One poin…

Seeing as you seem to be well-read in the area - what's your opinion of the "gamification" on khanacademy?

Re: Gamification is not entirely bullshit

#20
The most bizarre bit of gamification I've run across lately was in Wells Fargo's ATMs. I deposited a check the other day and got an alert on the ATM screen:

  You've earned a new badge
  Express Depositor
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Well! That should certainly help me gain status and reputation among my fellow ATM users!

Photo here: http://artlung.com/blog/2012/05/03/gamification-in-the-wild-...

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