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How do you make an addictive video game?

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Re: How do you make an addictive video game?

#11

Post by guyomes »

brigadier132 wrote: post #5
fredley wrote: post #2

The way you make an addictive anything: * Random, variable rewards, with the possibility for really great rewards. * In as many different ways as you can feasibly include. * Optimise for 'near-misses', which have been shown to increase the addictive properties.

> Random, variable rewards, with the possibility for really great rewards The more I've thought about it, the more I realize that variable reward is a key component of fun. All of the most fun and successful games have it built in, even if you don't realize it. Does it have ranked match making? That's variable reward. Why do you think online chess is so popular now? The ranked match making gives you just enough wins…

> I realize that variable reward is a key component of fun

Actually, Roger Caillois wrote a famous book on the different forms of play [1]. He uses four forms of play to classify games, and the one you are referring to is chance (Alea in his book). Another form of play that applies more accurately to chess is competition (Agon in his book). He also emphases two other key components of fun: playing a role (Mimicry) and physical sensations like in a roller coaster (Ilinx).

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man,_Play_and_Games

Re: How do you make an addictive video game?

#12

Post by brigadier132 »

guyomes wrote: post #11
brigadier132 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Random, variable rewards, with the possibility for really great rewards The more I've thought about it, the more I realize that variable reward is a key component of fun. All of the most fun and successful games have it built in, even if you don't realize it. Does it have ranked match making? That's variable reward. Why do you think online chess is so popular now? The ranked match making gives you just enough wins…

> I realize that variable reward is a key component of fun Actually, Roger Caillois wrote a famous book on the different forms of play [1]. He uses four forms of play to classify games, and the one you are referring to is chance (Alea in his book). Another form of play that applies more accurately to chess is competition (Agon in his book). He also emphases two other key components of fun: playing a role (Mimicry) an…

> Another form of play that applies more accurately to chess is competition

In my personal experience in competition if you are only losing or only winning it's not fun. I think competition is variable reward dressed up.

Re: How do you make an addictive video game?

#13

Post by guyomes »

brigadier132 wrote: post #12
guyomes wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I realize that variable reward is a key component of fun Actually, Roger Caillois wrote a famous book on the different forms of play [1]. He uses four forms of play to classify games, and the one you are referring to is chance (Alea in his book). Another form of play that applies more accurately to chess is competition (Agon in his book). He also emphases two other key components of fun: playing a role (Mimicry) an…

> Another form of play that applies more accurately to chess is competition In my personal experience in competition if you are only losing or only winning it's not fun. I think competition is variable reward dressed up.

I understand how competition can be seen as variable reward dressed up. On the other hand, in an attempt to classify games, separating the two components competition and chance is still useful. I think that chance is to be understood as a component completely independent of the player's skills. This allows to distinguish competitive games such as chess (competion with skills) and yahtzee (competition with chance) for example.

Re: How do you make an addictive video game?

#14

Post by abetusk »

Ultimately pretty shallow. This is more an exploration of how it feels to make a "sticky" game rather than how to actually make a sticky game.

I certainly don't have any expertise or deep insight but I will say that one of the best videos I've seen on this is "The art of screenshake" by J. Nijman of Vlambeer [0]. There, he walks through what's a very basic 2d sidescroller shooter and adds in effects until it looks like an actual fun game. The idea being that layering feedback and effects so that every aspect of the game becomes more fun to play.

It sounds like this podcast was focusing more on Hearthstone and Marvel Snap, both games which I haven't played but are more strategy and luck oriented than the kind of games Vlambeer makes. I think one of the insights there is that there's a non-commutative aspect of the game that allows for different strategies based on context. For example, A > B, B > C but C > A, like in rock paper scissors, or some of its generalizations [1]. I think this is what Magic the Gathering did with each of the colors. Maybe the keyword here is "mixed strategies"?

Nijman's video highlights, to me, the importance of polish and how we basically understand that many core mechanics are fun and so don't need to be innovative if you add in enough polish or support around it.

One other thing I'll mention is that A. Bruce who developed Antichamber had a GDC talk about his process of development [2]. One of the interesting points he made was that he got it in front of players and watched how long they played. He tried to continually optimize for engagement, trying to get people to play a minute longer, etc. until he worked through to a fun game.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJdEqssNZ-U

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pierre_ciseaux_feuille_l%...

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOlcB-JxkFw

Re: How do you make an addictive video game?

#15

Post by abetusk »

As an aside, one thing that I found interesting was the discussion on Poker and how it's both high luck and high skill. I think this point gets lost a lot in the startup world where it requires both extremely good luck and high threshold of skill, so you get, on one side some people saying that success is arbitrary but filtered by wealth and, on the other side, these strongman narratives of genius innovators.

Re: How do you make an addictive video game?

#17

Post by brigadier132 »

guyomes wrote: post #13
brigadier132 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Another form of play that applies more accurately to chess is competition In my personal experience in competition if you are only losing or only winning it's not fun. I think competition is variable reward dressed up.

I understand how competition can be seen as variable reward dressed up. On the other hand, in an attempt to classify games, separating the two components competition and chance is still useful. I think that chance is to be understood as a component completely independent of the player's skills. This allows to distinguish competitive games such as chess (competion with skills) and yahtzee (competition with chance) for…

Even competitions of chance have skill components (unless they are completely random) and competitions of skill have chance components (who do you get matched against). Even in chess, two players playing against eachother will not always have the same outcome, it's not completely deterministic.
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