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Show HN: Wovyn, physical world sensors for developers

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Re: Show HN: Wovyn, physical world sensors for developers

#11

Post by noonespecial »

How are these little startups dealing with the FCC regulation of consumer products that are classified "intentional radiators"? I'd really like to get back into this so this is a question I really would like to find an answer to.

The last time I looked into adding wireless to a device we were building, I was advised that any little nit that burps a frequency above 9Khz intentionally should expect an 8 week $30,000 trip through independent testing and regulation purgatory to get an FCC ID # and permission to sell to the general public. Not doing so and selling anyway was serious federal crime territory.

Granted this was years ago, but nowadays it seems that every other technical kickstarter is a whole bag full of different (which would be different models) "ninja boxes"(1) that tweet wireless data. How are they clearing (or sidestepping) this regulatory hurdle?

(1) A real product, virtually identical http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ninja/ninja-blocks-conne.... Funded huge.

Re: Show HN: Wovyn, physical world sensors for developers

#12

Post by huhtenberg »

humancell wrote: post #8
huhtenberg wrote: post #3

Oh, hai :) After thinking about home automation on an on-and-off basis for several years, I have concluded that the only thing that's needed is automation of electrical sockets. Being able to flip a physical switch and/or check its current state from an iPhone covers good 90% of automation needs. The 9.9% is a thermostat, a temperature sensor and a flood sensor for basement. The remaining 0.1% is exotic stuff to meas…

I agree completely ... it's not really interesting when it just goes to twitter. That's why it's designed to talk REST, EventedAPI, and MQTT to other software. The real value begins to grow when more complex rules systems can be applied to larger numbers of sensors, and then integrated with sensor data from your mobile phone, etc. You leave home ... the security is enabled ... home environment reflects you being "awa…

Really interesting in a geeky kind of way (to which I can relate completely), but practically speaking though - home automation has been around for a long time, and it didn't really go farther than thermostats, motion sensors + lights and security systems (that still need a hook up to the monitoring services to be useful). I remember tinkering with X.10 almost 10 years ago. Nothing much has changed, it's still engineers designing for engineers. Admittedly I haven't closely looked at the scene for a couple of years, but I researched the subject back then and remember seeing no home automation system that was designed with a notion of usability in mind. Lots of options - sure, plenty of buttons - you bet, perhaps a hierarchical menu with the depth of Cameron's dive - oh, that's a deluxe version :) It seemed that whoever designed those systems didn't actually use any of them.

(Not to hijack the thread)

There shouldn't be a remote, an existing iPhone should suffice. It should know which room I am in, and it should have relevant options based on that. Default to the electrical/heat/blinds and show all outlets and sockets. Allow to switch to other rooms, ideally in form of a floor plan. Make the remote work when I am not at home.

Sell this as a kit of sockets, pass-through junctions, wall switches and a small form-factor controller box. Put it all on WiFi, and give me an iPhone app to control the box. Make it easy to pair the box with devices (show a list of available devices and let me claim them). Allow hooking up the box to the Internet service for out-of-house access (charge me for that too, that's a fair deal).

Finally, put an effort into designing the UI and all visible physical parts. Not to be Nest-slick, but designed nonetheless. [1] is an example of what is not designed, but engineered. Feel the difference. Go to Europe to get inspired, if needs be.

Basically build a system only if you actually have a personal need for it, and not because you have a handful of assorted sensors. And "they will come" :)

--

[1] http://www.lutron.com/Products/StandAloneControls/Dimmers-Sw...

Re: Show HN: Wovyn, physical world sensors for developers

#13

Post by webwright »

huhtenberg wrote: post #3

Oh, hai :) After thinking about home automation on an on-and-off basis for several years, I have concluded that the only thing that's needed is automation of electrical sockets. Being able to flip a physical switch and/or check its current state from an iPhone covers good 90% of automation needs. The 9.9% is a thermostat, a temperature sensor and a flood sensor for basement. The remaining 0.1% is exotic stuff to meas…

Getting an SMS if one of my doors opened during the day might be nice.

Drop in on light switches would be huge... But how do you manage drop in? If the consumer has to actually replace the switch with a "smart" switch, that's DOA (requires wiring, messing with the breaker box, etc).

Re: Show HN: Wovyn, physical world sensors for developers

#14

Post by huhtenberg »

webwright wrote: post #13
huhtenberg wrote: post #3

Oh, hai :) After thinking about home automation on an on-and-off basis for several years, I have concluded that the only thing that's needed is automation of electrical sockets. Being able to flip a physical switch and/or check its current state from an iPhone covers good 90% of automation needs. The 9.9% is a thermostat, a temperature sensor and a flood sensor for basement. The remaining 0.1% is exotic stuff to meas…

Getting an SMS if one of my doors opened during the day might be nice. Drop in on light switches would be huge... But how do you manage drop in? If the consumer has to actually replace the switch with a "smart" switch, that's DOA (requires wiring, messing with the breaker box, etc).

> Getting an SMS if one of my doors opened during the day might be nice.

And what will you do in response? :)

> that's DOA

I don't know what DOA is, but replacing a light switch is the same whether it comes from the Home Depot or from a home automation start-up.

Re: Show HN: Wovyn, physical world sensors for developers

#15

Post by alexchamberlain »

noonespecial wrote: post #11

How are these little startups dealing with the FCC regulation of consumer products that are classified "intentional radiators"? I'd really like to get back into this so this is a question I really would like to find an answer to. The last time I looked into adding wireless to a device we were building, I was advised that any little nit that burps a frequency above 9Khz intentionally should expect an 8 week $30,000 tr…

I have no experience of this whatsoever... Didn't RPi do it in a week or so?

Re: Show HN: Wovyn, physical world sensors for developers

#16

Post by humancell »

noonespecial wrote: post #11

How are these little startups dealing with the FCC regulation of consumer products that are classified "intentional radiators"? I'd really like to get back into this so this is a question I really would like to find an answer to. The last time I looked into adding wireless to a device we were building, I was advised that any little nit that burps a frequency above 9Khz intentionally should expect an 8 week $30,000 tr…

The easiest way to do this is to utilize RF modules that have already been certified ... so then you don't have to go through that part. :-)

Re: Show HN: Wovyn, physical world sensors for developers

#17

Post by noonespecial »

alexchamberlain wrote: post #15
noonespecial wrote: post #11

How are these little startups dealing with the FCC regulation of consumer products that are classified "intentional radiators"? I'd really like to get back into this so this is a question I really would like to find an answer to. The last time I looked into adding wireless to a device we were building, I was advised that any little nit that burps a frequency above 9Khz intentionally should expect an 8 week $30,000 tr…

I have no experience of this whatsoever... Didn't RPi do it in a week or so?

I think it was more like a month, their distributor/manufactures did it for them and most especially, pis are not intentional radiators. They left off wifi partly for this very reason.

Re: Show HN: Wovyn, physical world sensors for developers

#18

Post by jeffpersonified »

X-Istence wrote: post #4

This reminds me of another Kickstarter that has already come and gone and are now in production Twine: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/supermechanical/twine-li...

That's what I thought of as well. Twine's, though not as robust, seems a more simple and elegant design. The question I'd like to know is who will take these systems and implement them in applications that have a greater "wow" factor for the consumer. Nest is a great example.

There are so many applications, especially when one considers location sensitivity relative to a phone.

Re: Show HN: Wovyn, physical world sensors for developers

#19

Post by KwanEsq »

huhtenberg wrote: post #14
webwright wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Getting an SMS if one of my doors opened during the day might be nice. Drop in on light switches would be huge... But how do you manage drop in? If the consumer has to actually replace the switch with a "smart" switch, that's DOA (requires wiring, messing with the breaker box, etc).

> Getting an SMS if one of my doors opened during the day might be nice. And what will you do in response? :) > that's DOA I don't know what DOA is, but replacing a light switch is the same whether it comes from the Home Depot or from a home automation start-up.

DOA is short for "dead on arrival".

Re: Show HN: Wovyn, physical world sensors for developers

#20

Post by noonespecial »

humancell wrote: post #16
noonespecial wrote: post #11

How are these little startups dealing with the FCC regulation of consumer products that are classified "intentional radiators"? I'd really like to get back into this so this is a question I really would like to find an answer to. The last time I looked into adding wireless to a device we were building, I was advised that any little nit that burps a frequency above 9Khz intentionally should expect an 8 week $30,000 tr…

The easiest way to do this is to utilize RF modules that have already been certified ... so then you don't have to go through that part. :-)

Thanks. That's a good answer. I don't think anything like this was cost effective in the early 2000's.

A quick google turned up this: http://search.digikey.com/us/en/products/MRF24J40MA-I%2FRM/M...

A module from Microchip that looks relatively easy for someone who already monkeys with micros to add low speed wireless to a project for about $8/unit. Very Nice.

I am inspired.

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