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What is Truth in this new AI world and how to make sense of it

news.ycombinator.com

11–20 of 20 posts

Re: What is Truth in this new AI world and how to make sense of it

#11
Once I read somewhere that people overestimate the impact of new technologies in the short term and underestimate it in the long term.

My interpretation is that right now we're on the top of AI euphoria wave. It was the same thing some time ago with crypto. We would hear a lot of theories about how a system based in objective microcontracts would make the subjective and inefficient governments of today obsolete.

We still don't know the true impact that the new LLM models will have over the economy, but what we know is that a lot of people is making a lot of money by being excessively optimistic with the prospects. Honestly I think that the practical impacts of LLMs won't be nowhere near to what the enthusiasts are preaching. In more 3-4 years the novelty will fade and then we will be ready to go to the next hype.

Re: What is Truth in this new AI world and how to make sense of it

#12
There are collections of millions of books available online.

Some legal as they are out of copyright. Like archive.org and project Gutenberg. Although they are under threat and can’t be counted on to remain around indefinitely.

There are other such libraries even more complete if you seek you shall find most books.

I think the move is to keep an archive of everything printed before 2000.

Abandon the interwebs, return to monke.

Re: What is Truth in this new AI world and how to make sense of it

#13
Humans do this every now and then. We seem to suffer through it somehow. Most of history consists of a large-scale epistemological battle.

We used to think the Roman Emperor (or equivalent) was the sole source of truth and understanding. Then we thought it was the church. The Enlightenment changed that to individual science and reason. We're currently (for the last 70 years or so) on a kick about how everything reduces to bits and bytes.

I was thinking this morning about how in the 80s AI researchers would argue whether or not a computer that played chess was "actually" playing chess, ie, was it conscious and having the experience people did when they played chess? Our answer from that period was something like "Who cares? If to me the computer looks like it is playing chess, it's playing chess. How can I tell differently?"

The rule here is that everything reduces to my generalized conception of how this transaction/game plays out. That's the Turing Test.

But this just shows how stupid people are. It doesn't say anything about intelligence. Intelligence is transformative and pre-language. You reduce it to words and images and you've destroyed the thing you're trying to create. The human that plays chess with me is the human one day that, while moving a pawn, comments on how life seems dull to them, striking a conversation about existentialism which, in turn, changes me slightly. Or they move slower than normal, making me worry about their health, which prompts me to think about my parents. That's chess, it's not moving pieces around.

Once you spot this, you can see it over and over again. Project Management must consist of reports, graphs, video meetings, and so forth, right? Those TPS reports need their covers. Movies must be spectacle and pre-canned drama. The piece of graphic I need for my book can easily be created by AI, right? Nobody thinks that by creating my own graphic I come to a new realization about the problem I'm exploring. That's not considered "graphic arts" If it can't be digitized, it must not be important, right?

Like everything else, this will keep going until it doesn't. And like all other examples, the change will be painful. But we always seem to muddle through. And if this turns out to be an extinction-level event? I find it tremendously and oddly-pleasing that man made it through all these trials only to be destroyed by the turbo-electric bullshitting machine we finally created. Somehow that seems to suit us.

Re: What is Truth in this new AI world and how to make sense of it

#14
post #8

Consider, have you ever known truth? how do you know? Everything you experience is generated by your mind, you do not have a firsthand experience of what's out there. You are a brain in a skull, yet you see light and feel spacious and you feel like a body. It is all generated similar to a dream which is also generated. Fun fact, I practice lucid dreaming and to become lucid I check to see if I'm dreaming by looking a…

This sort of postmodern deconstruction of everything leads to an endless pit of nothing. Why even write that comment? What are words even? Let alone letters? Why is a capital A three lines? What are lines? Why are vectors? Why is anything? Pffft. Get off my lawn.

start with that you know nothing

live accordingly

eat, laugh, dare to love, and depart from this mortal coil

it’s wild, it’s long, and if you’re lucky feels too short

Re: What is Truth in this new AI world and how to make sense of it

#15
post #8

Consider, have you ever known truth? how do you know? Everything you experience is generated by your mind, you do not have a firsthand experience of what's out there. You are a brain in a skull, yet you see light and feel spacious and you feel like a body. It is all generated similar to a dream which is also generated. Fun fact, I practice lucid dreaming and to become lucid I check to see if I'm dreaming by looking a…

This sort of postmodern deconstruction of everything leads to an endless pit of nothing. Why even write that comment? What are words even? Let alone letters? Why is a capital A three lines? What are lines? Why are vectors? Why is anything? Pffft. Get off my lawn.

It does not lead to nothing, it leads to emptiness, which is everything, like space.

Why write this? because deconstructing everything also leads me to read your comment see that I am getting irritated and angry. I can see I am angry because my knowledge or intellect feels insulted, I can then see how foolish that is, I can then read your comment again and see that you are triggered by what I said, but I don't know why. So I decide that your reaction to my opinion, is your problem.

This helps me calm down and harbor no, or far less ill will towards you than not.

That's why I write and suggest this. Also investigation may also be used if deconstruction doesn't work.

I do ask you, consider it if you can get over the anger and be open to it.

Re: What is Truth in this new AI world and how to make sense of it

#16
post #4

You assume you can find the truth from beliefs, words, sentences etc. Those all are human constructs which changes over time, location, personal age, mood etc. The truth cannot be explained or written down. You have to find it yourself. If you are serious about truth, going for a Vipassana retreat might be a good start. https://www.dhamma.org/en/index This is not everyone's cup of tea. Especially if you are suffering…

Yes, meditation is great, but also it has some non-trivial levels of risk. Do your research before going.

Good point. Updated the original comment to mention the risk as well.

Re: What is Truth in this new AI world and how to make sense of it

#17
post #8

Consider, have you ever known truth? how do you know? Everything you experience is generated by your mind, you do not have a firsthand experience of what's out there. You are a brain in a skull, yet you see light and feel spacious and you feel like a body. It is all generated similar to a dream which is also generated. Fun fact, I practice lucid dreaming and to become lucid I check to see if I'm dreaming by looking a…

This sort of postmodern deconstruction of everything leads to an endless pit of nothing. Why even write that comment? What are words even? Let alone letters? Why is a capital A three lines? What are lines? Why are vectors? Why is anything? Pffft. Get off my lawn.

> This sort of postmodern deconstruction of everything leads to an endless pit of nothing.

You missed the point. Even this is just a personal belief/opinion. Not truth.

Re: What is Truth in this new AI world and how to make sense of it

#18
post #10

The question: What is Truth? has been bothering people for a long time. Probably as soon as humans started to be able to talk about not so simple things. Many philosophers have spent thoughts about that. Religions popped up to give a simple answer to this question. Somehow the experience of AI seems to trigger this question. My take: There's no such thing as Truth. Everything is empty, and so is Truth. Once someone w…

> My take: There's no such thing as Truth. Everything is empty, and so is Truth.

By definition that is not true. Without any truths, everything is false, and communication is not possible. There are two questions at hand, is there an objective reality, if so.. is it accessible to our senses and can it be articulated with language? I feel neither of these is at stake with the advent of AGI. Having a machine that can think like a human means nothing to the question of objective reality or whether or not language is able to capture it.

> God is all-powerful, so God could make it that all religions on Earth are true simultaneously. If God were not all-powerful then God could not make it so. Where is then Truth?

I see this kind of objection to God a lot, and while this isn't necessarily a religious discussion, the problem here is that because God is an agent, asking God to do something contradictory doesn't prove or disprove anything. If God is all-powerful and all-knowing, he doesn't have to prove anything to anyone, and therefore there is no proof or disproof in the hypothetical. In other words, if God is all-powerful, not only could he make all religions true, he can also choose not to.

I think AGI is going to question our humanity, and it is understandable people are also questioning truth, however it is a separate question, and one that I bet even AGI will be grappling with.

Re: What is Truth in this new AI world and how to make sense of it

#19

It's worrying to read such anxiety, but take heart that your premises are wrong. LLMs are not "taking over". We're in another technology hype cycle. Unlike block-chains this one is more understandable by the masses, and more worrying to media types who always breathlessly trumpet everything. They now feel their jobs threatened (even more) by the race to the bottom of low quality crap that global corporatism ultimatel…

Excellent points!

How I like to think about the post truth thing: The time period in which we had reliable evidence that was impossible (or at least very difficult) to tamper with was quite short. Can't have been more than 200 years. Societies managed before, so I think we'll manage again.

Re: What is Truth in this new AI world and how to make sense of it

#20
Truth exists by a simple proof by contradiction.

* truth does not exist

* If truth does not exist, anything and everything is false

* If everything is false, so is the statement "truth does not exist"

* Therefore truth must exist

We're also talking about two questions: does objective reality exist? and can it be accurately communicated (at least up to a certain standard) with human language? I think the first question is not that interesting in most cases, since it devolves into untestable speculation. The second question has gained prominence thanks to postmodernism and can be discussed at length, although ultimately because it aims to deconstruct meaning, it suffers from the same type of contradiction mentioned above... if nothing has meaning, neither does the theory that points that out.

That said, neither of these should be relevant in the advent of generative AI and AGI. The fact some tools will produce content that is indistinguishable from reality has no impact on objective reality and whether or not we can capture true statements with language. Not only that, but I think AGI will probably need to grapple with the same problem. I can imagine a super intelligent machine making some advancements in this area, and I suspect it will also hit a wall and realize the limits of its own perceptions.

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