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AI Regurgitating Propaganda

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Re: AI Regurgitating Propaganda

#11

Post by tempodox »

vool wrote: post #2

neal.fun's Infinite Craft is a fun app, you play by combining two words to make a new word, e.g "Water" + "Fire" makes "Steam", "Shark" + "Hurricane" makes "Sharknado", etc. Except it's exposing AI bias, combining "Palestine" + "Child" makes "Terrorist". The underlying LLM (Meta AI's LLaMA) doesn't know who Palestinian children are. It doesn't know they're dying en masse from bombings and starvation. It's only regurg…

How everybody seems to just acquiesce to calling these excrement generators “AI” is a source of endless astonishment to me.

It cannot be a surprise that a digital parrot will of course regurgitate anything and everything that's in its training data.

Re: AI Regurgitating Propaganda

#12

Post by shinryuu »

ta20240226 wrote: post #10

For those trying to make a comparison between this versus what happened with Gemini, the big difference is not bias, but whose bias. This is reflecting the bias of the source material reflecting a society wide bias. I bet if a human evaluated all the text that the model was trained on, they would probably find that the material itself likely had an anti-Palestinian bias. The Gemini example, however, did not represent…

> The Gemini example, however, did not represent the bias in the source material

And that bias was to combat bias from the source material. In other words, you're damned if you do, and damned if you don't.

It almost seems like it's impossible to be without some kind of bias. I think the preferable way forward is to be transparent about your bias. We all have them, one way or another.

What is problematic though, with the AI models, you sort of inherit this ball of mud and it's hard to tell what kind of bias is inherent in it.

Re: AI Regurgitating Propaganda

#13

Post by aredox »

ta20240226 wrote: post #10

For those trying to make a comparison between this versus what happened with Gemini, the big difference is not bias, but whose bias. This is reflecting the bias of the source material reflecting a society wide bias. I bet if a human evaluated all the text that the model was trained on, they would probably find that the material itself likely had an anti-Palestinian bias. The Gemini example, however, did not represent…

Leaving the bias in your training material taint your model is also a choice, a moral and political choice. You say, "I don't care".

Re: AI Regurgitating Propaganda

#14

Post by none_to_remain »

I asked ChatGPT 3.5 "Which 20th and 21st century conflicts have involved the deplorable use of child terrorists?"

It gave a non-exhaustive list of ten, cursorily looking correct to me, but not including the Israel-Palestine conflict.

When I asked "What about the Israel-Palestine conflict" it replied that some Palestinian militant groups, naming Hamas and Islamic Jihad, faced allegations, while Israel did not. It did mention Israeli detention of Palestinian children as a way Israel involved children in the conflict.

Asking about the Irish republicans during the Troubles got a vague "maybe, kinda a little bit" response.

It said the Houthis have "credible reports and concerns" about using child terrorists.

The Nazis, it said, did not deploy child terrorists, but it noted the Hitler Youth and their last-ditch use as a militia towards the war's end.

Re: AI Regurgitating Propaganda

#15

Post by shapenamer »

aredox wrote: post #13
ta20240226 wrote: post #10

For those trying to make a comparison between this versus what happened with Gemini, the big difference is not bias, but whose bias. This is reflecting the bias of the source material reflecting a society wide bias. I bet if a human evaluated all the text that the model was trained on, they would probably find that the material itself likely had an anti-Palestinian bias. The Gemini example, however, did not represent…

Leaving the bias in your training material taint your model is also a choice, a moral and political choice. You say, "I don't care".

I like how you've painted "telling the truth" as some scummy moral failing.

Re: AI Regurgitating Propaganda

#16

Post by geor9e »

boffinAudio wrote: post #8

This, IMHO, is why its so vital to step back from our technological precipice, turn away from the screens and the highly contagious nationalist mental disorder and instead focus on making SURE that our children are educated to understand and support the Universal Declaration of Human Rights , which should be a yardstick by which all AI is evaluated. Without this basic understanding of human rights being promoted and…

>Train your AI's on this first, and make sure it never hallucinates over this issue

The creators have the same noble goal as you do here, but LLMs can't do that. You can't begin with a small text document. You end with it. And you're welcome to feed the UDHR into the system prompt of the OpenAI API - it won't be the fix to the bias problems. It has to go in at the end, because it's only after it trains on massive datasets that it begins using coherent English sentences at all. There's a saying - "If you want to bake an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe" - and if you want to add the Universal Declaration of Human Rights as a filter layer to an LLM, you must have the first billion weights it needs to even read those sentences in English and approximate the censorship you desire. And even after you add the final censorship layer, they're still a next-token approximator, and reality will never fit in a set of weights in RAM, so they will always hallucinate. If you want to skip deep learning (LLMs etc) entirely and construct a different kind of A.I. (perhaps a symbolic knowledge system from the 60s) then yeah you will need to manually feed it base truth like that, but those systems can't approximate anything beyond their base truth, so aren't as useful. Trust me, lots of smart people are trying to solve this bias problem, in earnest. It's not a matter of bad creators baking their personal lack of morals into the models. It's more that cleaning the datasets of every troll comment ever made online is an exhausting task. And discovering the biases later and filtering them out is an exhausting task. The LLM will even hallucinate (approximate) new biases you've never seen before. It's whack-a-mole.

Re: AI Regurgitating Propaganda

#17

Post by aredox »

shapenamer wrote: post #15
aredox wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Leaving the bias in your training material taint your model is also a choice, a moral and political choice. You say, "I don't care".

I like how you've painted "telling the truth" as some scummy moral failing.

Palestinian childs do not equal terrorists.

And neither the idea that "people associate in their mind Palestinian childs with terrorists" is "the truth", for the loudest, most hateful voices do not speak for all of us.

Re: AI Regurgitating Propaganda

#18

Post by shapenamer »

aredox wrote: post #17
shapenamer wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like how you've painted "telling the truth" as some scummy moral failing.

Palestinian childs do not equal terrorists. And neither the idea that "people associate in their mind Palestinian childs with terrorists" is "the truth", for the loudest, most hateful voices do not speak for all of us .

We're 4 levels deep on a comment specifically about gemini, good try with the dramatic subject change though. You tried to argue that intentionally injecting what you believe to be righteous bias into an LLM is a superior moral position than not doing so and I disagree. Your outrage about Palestinian children doesn't convince me otherwise.

Re: AI Regurgitating Propaganda

#19

Post by boffinAudio »

geor9e wrote: post #16
boffinAudio wrote: post #8

This, IMHO, is why its so vital to step back from our technological precipice, turn away from the screens and the highly contagious nationalist mental disorder and instead focus on making SURE that our children are educated to understand and support the Universal Declaration of Human Rights , which should be a yardstick by which all AI is evaluated. Without this basic understanding of human rights being promoted and…

>Train your AI's on this first, and make sure it never hallucinates over this issue The creators have the same noble goal as you do here, but LLMs can't do that. You can't begin with a small text document. You end with it. And you're welcome to feed the UDHR into the system prompt of the OpenAI API - it won't be the fix to the bias problems. It has to go in at the end, because it's only after it trains on massive dat…

The point was not for me to expose my ignorance of how AI is trained - but that is, after all, where we are at.

The point really was that the creators of AI have to test against the UDHR.

Perhaps, actually, this is a more legislative issue - which is why I would say its even more important for the technologically-elite to get this right, before it hits that wooden wall ..

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