Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Chomsky - Jobs aren't coming back

salon.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

11–20 of 57 posts

Re: Chomsky - Jobs aren't coming back

#11

Post by jstalin »

lotides wrote: post #8
jstalin wrote: post #2

"It’s quite different now. For many people in the United States, there’s a pervasive sense of hopelessness, sometimes despair." It's because we've been pacified through handouts and the welfare state. There's no longer a need to think about working hard and getting out of the unemployment morass we're in. Government will take care of you! Food stamp spending is at all-time record levels. Millions more people have gon…

Time to turn off the talk radio, buddy. People can't get jobs that don't exist. The people on unemployment, disability or other government benefits didn't conspire to ruin the economy. They're just trying to feed their families and survive long enough to find work. If you're looking for someone to blame, look at the people that got rich while the rest of America got poor. The ones the benefited from this disaster are…

Did I say they conspired to ruin the economy? No. Did I say I blame them for the state of the economy? No.

And I don't listen to talk radio.

I'm blaming the excessive amount of debt in the system, both personal and public. It's crushing. Each additional dollar of public debt is having a negative real effect on the economy. Of course, the crushing level of bureaucracy and costs of running a small business are a big part of the problem as well. The economy is paralyzed by debt and regulatory uncertainty.

If Japan can manage as a majority-services economy, we can too. Manufacturing doesn't make the world suddenly better.

Re: Chomsky - Jobs aren't coming back

#12

Post by jstalin »

dkrich wrote: post #9

I think there is an ongoing obsession in this country to always live in fear and convince oneself that things are always at their worst and the bottom is always about to fall out at any moment. Maybe it's human nature. But I just don't buy this doom and gloom nonsense. Yes the economy is bad, there is no question about that, but the economy has been bad before. Probably the last comparable period was the late 70's. I…

Prepare to get down voted like crazy for pointing out the negative effects of deficits and debt...

Re: Chomsky - Jobs aren't coming back

#13

Post by vsmatck »

tnuc wrote: post #4
jstalin wrote: post #2

"It’s quite different now. For many people in the United States, there’s a pervasive sense of hopelessness, sometimes despair." It's because we've been pacified through handouts and the welfare state. There's no longer a need to think about working hard and getting out of the unemployment morass we're in. Government will take care of you! Food stamp spending is at all-time record levels. Millions more people have gon…

Given that the US spends over half its budget on "defence" I really don't know where you are getting your ideas from. Maybe some numbers and a source?

Half is incorrect. It's about 20%. Still a large amount.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_budget (look at first graph)

I really don't know where you are getting your ideas from. (you were asking for this :)

Re: Chomsky - Jobs aren't coming back

#14

Post by tomjen3 »

tnuc wrote: post #4
jstalin wrote: post #2

"It’s quite different now. For many people in the United States, there’s a pervasive sense of hopelessness, sometimes despair." It's because we've been pacified through handouts and the welfare state. There's no longer a need to think about working hard and getting out of the unemployment morass we're in. Government will take care of you! Food stamp spending is at all-time record levels. Millions more people have gon…

Given that the US spends over half its budget on "defence" I really don't know where you are getting your ideas from. Maybe some numbers and a source?

Did you even read what you are replying to?

He wasn't talking about the sum of money, just that it had gone up -- and he wasn't talking about how to finance it, just that it had caused more people to become dependent on assistance _even as more people are getting a job_. Meaning that it is not because there is no jobs.

Re: Chomsky - Jobs aren't coming back

#15

Post by dlokshin »

tnuc wrote: post #4
jstalin wrote: post #2

"It’s quite different now. For many people in the United States, there’s a pervasive sense of hopelessness, sometimes despair." It's because we've been pacified through handouts and the welfare state. There's no longer a need to think about working hard and getting out of the unemployment morass we're in. Government will take care of you! Food stamp spending is at all-time record levels. Millions more people have gon…

Given that the US spends over half its budget on "defence" I really don't know where you are getting your ideas from. Maybe some numbers and a source?

Perhaps you should be checking your numbers? Defense this year is 24%, which is half of 50%. Welfare + Social Security + Medicare = 54%.

http://cl.ly/1x3D1W3Z2c3Z2G1w400g

Re: Chomsky - Jobs aren't coming back

#16

Post by acslater00 »

I don't know why I keep bothering to point this out, but the notion that "America no longer makes things" is absolutely, empirically, unassailably false.

See this: http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/OUTMS

And a prior discussion of the topic.

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3803022

Anybody who starts a discussion decrying the death of manufacturing in America is selling you something, and it's not a manufacturing job.

Sidebar: This quote!

"The workforce and the union offered to buy it, take it over, and run it themselves. The multinational decided to close it down instead, probably for reasons of class-consciousness."

Aside from the fact that this story is clearly made-up, the idea that a profit-seeking corporation would favor "shutting down" an asset rather than selling it because it fears an uprising of the working class is just about the stupidest fucking thing I've ever heard.

Re: Chomsky - Jobs aren't coming back

#17

Post by jbooth »

vsmatck wrote: post #13
tnuc wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that the US spends over half its budget on "defence" I really don't know where you are getting your ideas from. Maybe some numbers and a source?

Half is incorrect. It's about 20%. Still a large amount. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_budget (look at first graph) I really don't know where you are getting your ideas from. (you were asking for this :)

Over half of the discretionary budget, which is the pot of money that things like food stamps come out of (way less than 1%, if anyone's counting).

The entitlement programs are run off of their own separate taxes and are legally "off-budget" compared to discretionary spending. Their budget isn't voted on, it's basically "automatic", coming from the legislation that created them. Same with debt repayment (which, coincidentally, represents defense spending in previous years, neat that it doesn't count that way on your pie chart though).

So that's where he's getting his ideas from. The federal budget that gets voted on by congress every year (in a good year) is over 50% defense, and more like 65% defense if you include Homeland Security, Dept of State, Veteran Affairs, etc in the defense column instead of domestic.

Here's a more useful graphic: http://www.deathandtaxesposter.com/

Re: Chomsky - Jobs aren't coming back

#18

Post by zerostar07 »

jstalin wrote: post #2

"It’s quite different now. For many people in the United States, there’s a pervasive sense of hopelessness, sometimes despair." It's because we've been pacified through handouts and the welfare state. There's no longer a need to think about working hard and getting out of the unemployment morass we're in. Government will take care of you! Food stamp spending is at all-time record levels. Millions more people have gon…

That isn't necessarily true. In general, some agree that the state should provide the basics, and as the centuries go by and the world gets richer, those basics become more and more. Reasonable welfare equals to higher productivity rather than laziness. If you are not convinced, look at the countries that provide the most in terms of welfare such as northern europe or japan and yet they are equally or more productive than the US.

Re: Chomsky - Jobs aren't coming back

#19

Post by rhizome »

jstalin wrote: post #7
tnuc wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that the US spends over half its budget on "defence" I really don't know where you are getting your ideas from. Maybe some numbers and a source?

Where did I support current or additional defense spending? Frankly, it's just another welfare scheme. Defense spending is largely a waste.

Maybe, but it's telling that you didn't mention it at all and instead focussed on blaming people on food stamps.

Re: Chomsky - Jobs aren't coming back

#20

Post by [deleted] »

dkrich wrote: post #9

I think there is an ongoing obsession in this country to always live in fear and convince oneself that things are always at their worst and the bottom is always about to fall out at any moment. Maybe it's human nature. But I just don't buy this doom and gloom nonsense. Yes the economy is bad, there is no question about that, but the economy has been bad before. Probably the last comparable period was the late 70's. I…

[deleted]
Post reply on HN