> Interviews should be as close as possible to the work that the candidate would do if they join. Interviews should give information to both parties about what it would be like if the person joined. Simulating a typical work task, as this article describes, might give you some of that. Though important to remember that's far from all that's relevant to either party. A recently fashionable Leetcode hazing, on the othe…
> was willing to submit to it for the approval of this company I abstain, myself. I have too much real work that I'd like to push forward to be able justify spending weeks of free time on fake work.
Becoming a dungeon master for an interview
11–20 of 181 posts
Re: Becoming a dungeon master for an interview
#12I think one issue with this is that some candidates who might be great at the actual job could, for whatever reason, be bad at this verbal type of simulation. Perhaps they work by staring at the problem on their screen a lot, perhaps they struggle to think at the same time as roleplaying. Just saying that this roleplaying aspect is somewhat tested for and doesnt align with the job exactly.
Re: Becoming a dungeon master for an interview
#13Earlier quoted context omitted.
> was willing to submit to it for the approval of this company I abstain, myself. I have too much real work that I'd like to push forward to be able justify spending weeks of free time on fake work.
Great! Isn’t that the point? That some people who really don’t want the job won’t invest a bit of their time and people who do really want the job will?
That's who interviewers are looking for. Now, a case can be made that there aren't that many of those people and you might not need them anyway, but... if you can spend a few weeks to catch up that's not all bad compared to what high-end job offers in other professions demand of your resume.
The more we keep the interview process something demonstrable vs status/prestige/name-check/references, the better.
Re: Becoming a dungeon master for an interview
#14On average, I enjoy these kinds of interviews much more than leetcode. The quality of the prep work and the ad libbing makes a huge difference to the quality of the interview though. One particularly memorable interview involved verbally debugging intermittent crashes the interviewer had recently seen. Unfortunately, they had no information about the software stack, unique symptoms, or access to status registers so i…
Re: Becoming a dungeon master for an interview
#15I think one issue with this is that some candidates who might be great at the actual job could, for whatever reason, be bad at this verbal type of simulation. Perhaps they work by staring at the problem on their screen a lot, perhaps they struggle to think at the same time as roleplaying. Just saying that this roleplaying aspect is somewhat tested for and doesnt align with the job exactly.
As someone who struggles with ~parallelizing some tasks (especially when anxious), it would be great to have an up-front check in about how comfortable I am with the format of any technical ~challenge. (And even better to discover there's some wiggle room to accommodate.)
For example, I find it very difficult to code my way through a problem and narrate what I'm doing and take feedback while I know I'm being evaluated and the clock's ticking. If the interviewer says something important in the middle of this, I often have to put down any plates I've managed to get spinning (and maybe go offload some adrenaline) and then ask them to repeat before I can even parse the words they said, let alone figure out how they apply to the problem.
Re: Becoming a dungeon master for an interview
#16Earlier quoted context omitted.
> was willing to submit to it for the approval of this company I abstain, myself. I have too much real work that I'd like to push forward to be able justify spending weeks of free time on fake work.
Great! Isn’t that the point? That some people who really don’t want the job won’t invest a bit of their time and people who do really want the job will?
Re: Becoming a dungeon master for an interview
#17> Interviews should be as close as possible to the work that the candidate would do if they join. Interviews should give information to both parties about what it would be like if the person joined. Simulating a typical work task, as this article describes, might give you some of that. Though important to remember that's far from all that's relevant to either party. A recently fashionable Leetcode hazing, on the othe…
Coding is more like weight lifting sometimes then running. There are some weights that some people just can't pick up. And so if the job involves lifting things that are usually light but occasionally heavy, then a squat becomes a good measure for candidate.
But once everyone knows a big squat is the way in, they train squats, they show up in lift suits, they use amyl nitrates and the whole thing stops being a good measure.
Because on the job you don't squat in a squat rack, but pick things up where they are found, in the conditions on the ground.
Goodheart's law breaks things, because now you have a bunch of people optimized for a task that isn't exactly the job.
Re: Becoming a dungeon master for an interview
#18> Interviews should be as close as possible to the work that the candidate would do if they join. Interviews should give information to both parties about what it would be like if the person joined. Simulating a typical work task, as this article describes, might give you some of that. Though important to remember that's far from all that's relevant to either party. A recently fashionable Leetcode hazing, on the othe…
> Interviews should give information to both parties about what it would be like if the person joined. I have participated in interview processes where, at the last interview, the employer tries to talk the candidate out of taking the job. Discuss the problems, the warts, the intractable issues, and other things that are downsides of this job. Every organization has these. I love this, because the employee is going t…
I do something related to this in the interview. Part of the interview is more like things you'd tell a colleague who was considering that: pretty accurate characterization of what you know of the work, your idea of pros, things that might or might not be cons for the person, etc.
Basically, they show up the first day, and their interactions with me are just the same (plus a little extra excitement on my part that they joined, and now able to share proprietary details but without unpleasant surprises). Six months later, and I'm still just the same (plus extra familiarity and increased mutual trust). And hopefully they also are what they seemed to be in the interview.
Though you can't necessarily be 100% candid about everything in an interview, like if you were doing an internal assessment a technology, product, vendor, or competitor. For example, there are personnel issues, company image, proprietary tech, etc. Also, you don't want to say something that ends up misleadingly quoted out of context on a jobs forum or word-of-mouth by someone with a different sense of professionalism or confidentiality, and you don't want to give ammo to a spy from a competitor.
In practice, the line of what to say seems pretty intuitive to hit, and I haven't knowingly had a problem with it. Though, when working at one company doing exotic-sounding, high-value-sounding stuff, I did have a couple candidates grill me on the tech and/or on resources. On those I try to respond something like, "Some of that is very proprietary, and unfortunately can't be talked about much right now until someone joins the team. But I can tell you some of the public information from news articles and such is A, B, and C. There's a few marketecture diagrams on our Web site, and links to some published research papers that detail those aspects better than I could."
Re: Becoming a dungeon master for an interview
#19> Interviews should be as close as possible to the work that the candidate would do if they join. Interviews should give information to both parties about what it would be like if the person joined. Simulating a typical work task, as this article describes, might give you some of that. Though important to remember that's far from all that's relevant to either party. A recently fashionable Leetcode hazing, on the othe…
I feel like leetcode is a Goodhart's Law thing. When nobody was cramming for it, then at some places it was a good measure. Coding is more like weight lifting sometimes then running. There are some weights that some people just can't pick up. And so if the job involves lifting things that are usually light but occasionally heavy, then a squat becomes a good measure for candidate. But once everyone knows a big squat i…
Companies lose another way too.
Folks who might be darn good at picking things up decide it isn't worth the focused training to get into companies that only seem to care about squatting, so they don't apply.
Re: Becoming a dungeon master for an interview
#201: define the requirements for the job
2: devise questions that attempt to give insight into how well the candidate might meet that requirement
3: note down the candidates suitability out of ten for each question
4: TALK to the candidate in a free flowing and open discussion about their work, what they have done, how they built it, why they built it that way, their role in the project, what went right, what went wrong, what they would do differently.
5: Whether or not the candidate asks questions is a meaningless measure. What is meaningful is to sense their level of curiosity - about this job that you are offering, about computing and technology in general. Software development is hard and being good at it requires a level of curiosity. It's probably a concern if someone shows no curiosity in this job or software, though you need to be cautious about how you measure this - did you do a good enough job to explore their level of curiosity? Curiosity does not necessarily reveal itself without careful probing.
6: Discuss the actual work of this job with the candidate. Quickly run through the actual todo list of things that need to be done right now - talk through the hardest of those tasks - how would they approach it?
7: take a leap and employ the person you feel is right - do NOT go into ever deeper analysis, ever more interviews, ever more tests and checks and hoops. No matter how much interviewing you do, you probably won't really know how someone goes in this job until they've been in it 3 or more months.
8: Don't be so risk averse that you don't hire anyone. Do it based on your best guess. it might sound harsh, but do your best and be willing to fire them before their 3 month trial is up if they are not the right person.
9: Take into account enthusiasm - how much does this person want this job? And no, do NOT measure this until the end of the interview process - looking for enthusiasm in a cover letter is like wanting a girlfriend/boyfriend commitment before first date.
10: Pay more than people expect, if you can. $1K less than someone says they want/need reduces first day enthusiasm for the job, $1K more increases first day enthusiasm. Wind the numbers up and down for greater impact.
11: After the interview process is done, talk to referees, analyses interview results apples versus apples.
12: Interview gimmicks, leetcode, abstract questions should be red flags for interviewees. If you're looking for a job and find yourself in a silly interview, be willing to politely call it off and save yourself the time and hassle of dealing with a company that does not know how to recruit software developers.