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FinCEN proposes new rule for residential real estate held in trusts or LLCs

fincen.gov

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Re: FinCEN proposes new rule for residential real estate held in trusts or LLCs

#11

Post by egberts1 »

wavefunction wrote: post #5
egberts1 wrote: post #4

It is common for liberty-oriented officials to put their own home into an LLC and have an appointed officer/manager as the public-facing contact. I am quite sure that rich and powerful people will do some decent but firm pushback if FinCen goes too far in making records public. Edited: replaced 'privacy-oriented' with 'liberty-oriented' in light of Bruce Schneier's blog.

If they have nothing to hide they have nothing to fear. I would take the hypothetical fear and pushback by these "types" as a strong positive signal that this is an effort that is vitally worth doing for society.

Quoting Joseph Goebbels?

Bruce Schneier said: "Too many wrongly characterize the debate as 'security versus privacy.' The real choice is liberty versus control."

https://www.schneier.com/essays/archives/2006/05/the_eternal...

Re: FinCEN proposes new rule for residential real estate held in trusts or LLCs

#12

Post by GoldenMonkey »

wavefunction wrote: post #5
egberts1 wrote: post #4

It is common for liberty-oriented officials to put their own home into an LLC and have an appointed officer/manager as the public-facing contact. I am quite sure that rich and powerful people will do some decent but firm pushback if FinCen goes too far in making records public. Edited: replaced 'privacy-oriented' with 'liberty-oriented' in light of Bruce Schneier's blog.

If they have nothing to hide they have nothing to fear. I would take the hypothetical fear and pushback by these "types" as a strong positive signal that this is an effort that is vitally worth doing for society.

Is nothing in our life private now? What about the need for privacy. Random ppl shouldn't know your financial holdings. We have a real lack of privacy now and easy access to the public records.

Re: FinCEN proposes new rule for residential real estate held in trusts or LLCs

#13

Post by gottorf »

mikeyouse wrote: post #8
instagib wrote: post #3

I tried to parse a little of this so, FinCEN wants to know who profits off of real estate if you are a 5% equity share holder or 10% if at a director level in an organization. Will FinCEN publish these records? It would defeat the purpose of putting a home in an llc for anonymity. Under the proposed rule, persons involved in real estate closings and settlements would continue to be exempt from the anti-money launderi…

The records aren't publicly available - they'll provide them to the Feds and to anyone who provides a valid court order; https://www.fincen.gov/news/news-releases/fact-sheet-benefic... .

> they'll provide them to the Feds

That's too bad; methinks the Feds should also need a court order. Though, I suppose with FISA courts rubber-stamping warrants, it wouldn't even be a nuisance.

Re: FinCEN proposes new rule for residential real estate held in trusts or LLCs

#14

Post by max_ »

Fin_Code wrote: post #7

This is deeply needed, one of the big causes of housing inflation is using it to launder money. Higher housing costs are better because you can launder more. Its like when rich people can't have a money trail for some shady activity so they sell art to each other for a wild amount. This will require all owners to be named instead of a nameless llc. Should help curb the process.

Can't some lawyer just be used as a proxy for holding the real estate?

Re: FinCEN proposes new rule for residential real estate held in trusts or LLCs

#15

Post by dwater »

GoldenMonkey wrote: post #12
wavefunction wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they have nothing to hide they have nothing to fear. I would take the hypothetical fear and pushback by these "types" as a strong positive signal that this is an effort that is vitally worth doing for society.

Is nothing in our life private now? What about the need for privacy. Random ppl shouldn't know your financial holdings. We have a real lack of privacy now and easy access to the public records.

There is public benefit to knowing the beneficial owner of real estate. It is the physical assets of a community and the community benefits from knowing who ultimately owns those assets.

Re: FinCEN proposes new rule for residential real estate held in trusts or LLCs

#16

Post by psychlops »

Fin_Code wrote: post #7

This is deeply needed, one of the big causes of housing inflation is using it to launder money. Higher housing costs are better because you can launder more. Its like when rich people can't have a money trail for some shady activity so they sell art to each other for a wild amount. This will require all owners to be named instead of a nameless llc. Should help curb the process.

> one of the big causes of housing inflation is using it to launder money

I'd love a link backing this bold assertion.

Re: FinCEN proposes new rule for residential real estate held in trusts or LLCs

#17

Post by mikeyouse »

gottorf wrote: post #13
mikeyouse wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The records aren't publicly available - they'll provide them to the Feds and to anyone who provides a valid court order; https://www.fincen.gov/news/news-releases/fact-sheet-benefic... .

> they'll provide them to the Feds That's too bad; methinks the Feds should also need a court order. Though, I suppose with FISA courts rubber-stamping warrants, it wouldn't even be a nuisance.

Depends on your level of cynicism whether they'll follow the guardrails, but they do have some;

> Federal government agency access to BOI. Under the Access Rule and as authorized by the CTA, FinCEN may disclose BOI to Federal agencies engaged in national security, intelligence, or law enforcement activity if the requested BOI is for use in furtherance of such activity. “Law enforcement activity” includes both criminal and civil investigations and actions, such as actions to impose civil penalties, civil forfeiture actions, and civil enforcement through administrative proceedings. Prior to requesting BOI, Federal agency users will be required to certify that the agency is engaged in a national security, intelligence, or law enforcement activity and that the information requested is for use in furtherance of that activity. They will also be required to provide the specific reasons why the requested information is relevant to the activity.

Re: FinCEN proposes new rule for residential real estate held in trusts or LLCs

#18

Post by jgilias »

Fin_Code wrote: post #7

This is deeply needed, one of the big causes of housing inflation is using it to launder money. Higher housing costs are better because you can launder more. Its like when rich people can't have a money trail for some shady activity so they sell art to each other for a wild amount. This will require all owners to be named instead of a nameless llc. Should help curb the process.

Housing inflation everywhere is mostly due to the stock of housing growing a lot slower (or not at all) compared to the growth of broad money supply.

If there’s more of the thing that you use to account for stuff, but stuff doesn’t become more, the number in your units of account goes up.

Edit: Apart from that, there’s monetary premium put on real estate, as people effectively use it to short the currency by buying it with debt.

Re: FinCEN proposes new rule for residential real estate held in trusts or LLCs

#19

Post by lazide »

dwater wrote: post #15
GoldenMonkey wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is nothing in our life private now? What about the need for privacy. Random ppl shouldn't know your financial holdings. We have a real lack of privacy now and easy access to the public records.

There is public benefit to knowing the beneficial owner of real estate. It is the physical assets of a community and the community benefits from knowing who ultimately owns those assets.

Ultimately, this appears to be yet another step in the direction of deep control of society over wealth and the people who have it.

Which, if you ever want to have anything of your own or be better than median in some way should concern you greatly.

Some people will not rest until you’re poorer and more miserable than them, no matter what. Even if it means hurting themselves (and everyone else) to do it.

Crabs in a bucket mentality is deeply destructive and dangerous.

Re: FinCEN proposes new rule for residential real estate held in trusts or LLCs

#20

Post by nostromo »

wavefunction wrote: post #5
egberts1 wrote: post #4

It is common for liberty-oriented officials to put their own home into an LLC and have an appointed officer/manager as the public-facing contact. I am quite sure that rich and powerful people will do some decent but firm pushback if FinCen goes too far in making records public. Edited: replaced 'privacy-oriented' with 'liberty-oriented' in light of Bruce Schneier's blog.

If they have nothing to hide they have nothing to fear. I would take the hypothetical fear and pushback by these "types" as a strong positive signal that this is an effort that is vitally worth doing for society.

> If they have nothing to hide they have nothing to fear.

Ok then. Share with us your email and social media passwords -- and give us access to your Google Photos while you're at it. Otherwise -- what are you hiding?

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