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MadRadar attack causes automotive radar to 'hallucinate'

allaboutcircuits.com

11–20 of 62 posts

Re: MadRadar attack causes automotive radar to 'hallucinate'

#11

Spoofing radar signals isn't exactly new, and the ability to do it on the ground (so to speak) shouldn't be surprising. The military has been doing it for decades. Also, it doesn't take nearly the sophistication of the system demo'ed here -- a chaff canister released into traffic would, I imagine, play twenty kinds of havoc on any autonomous driving system that relied on radar.

> Spoofing radar signals isn't exactly new, and the ability to do it on the ground (so to speak) shouldn't be surprising. The military has been doing it for decades.

People who are interested in finding out more can look up Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM) jammers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_radio_frequency_memory

I don't mean to sound pessimistic, but the link's assertion that any of these techniques are new suggests that either allaboutcircuits is not familiar with radar/electronic attack or that Duke University and/or the automative radar folks are not up to speed with techniques used in radar/electronic attack in the defense/aerospace industries. Maybe it's the latter, as the arXiv preprint states "...show the novel ability to effectively ‘add’ (i.e., false positive attacks), ‘remove’ (i.e., false negative attacks), or ‘move’ (i.e., translation attacks) object detections...".

These are open data, too. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radar_jamming_and_deception.

The arXiv preprint doesn't list any of the usual suspects for radar or electronic attack sources that I would expect to see in its references. There are a lot of automotive radar sources and, interestingly enough, some LiDAR and LiDAR adversarial attacks instead.

Re: MadRadar attack causes automotive radar to 'hallucinate'

#12

Spoofing radar signals isn't exactly new, and the ability to do it on the ground (so to speak) shouldn't be surprising. The military has been doing it for decades. Also, it doesn't take nearly the sophistication of the system demo'ed here -- a chaff canister released into traffic would, I imagine, play twenty kinds of havoc on any autonomous driving system that relied on radar.

Even ignoring the possibility of intentional jamming, I wonder if the increase in radar-equipped cars will start causing significant interference in other cars' operations. Every once in a while I get a phantom "brake!" signal when there is nothing in front of me.

Re: MadRadar attack causes automotive radar to 'hallucinate'

#13
post #8

Spoofing radar signals isn't exactly new, and the ability to do it on the ground (so to speak) shouldn't be surprising. The military has been doing it for decades. Also, it doesn't take nearly the sophistication of the system demo'ed here -- a chaff canister released into traffic would, I imagine, play twenty kinds of havoc on any autonomous driving system that relied on radar.

A large cloud of glitter would do the same for optical systems, e.g. human drivers. Shining intense light at drivers is also known to cause havoc and incidents. Now imagine a night road lit by a dancing hall light show; many human drivers would find themselves discombobulated.

>Shining intense light at drivers is also known to cause havoc and incidents.

This is absolutely normal when driving on American roads at night these days.

Re: MadRadar attack causes automotive radar to 'hallucinate'

#14
post #12

Spoofing radar signals isn't exactly new, and the ability to do it on the ground (so to speak) shouldn't be surprising. The military has been doing it for decades. Also, it doesn't take nearly the sophistication of the system demo'ed here -- a chaff canister released into traffic would, I imagine, play twenty kinds of havoc on any autonomous driving system that relied on radar.

Even ignoring the possibility of intentional jamming, I wonder if the increase in radar-equipped cars will start causing significant interference in other cars' operations. Every once in a while I get a phantom "brake!" signal when there is nothing in front of me.

Just about every Toyota sold in the past few years has a radar unit on its bumper. Pretty sure if there was going to be interference naturally from a lot of vehicles, we would have seen it already.

Re: MadRadar attack causes automotive radar to 'hallucinate'

#15
I got a Volkswagen with front assist and adaptive cruise control. I use it mainly for long runs with little traffic, that way my foot doesn’t get cramped for staying at the same position.

When crossing under some bridges, sometimes it decelerates and warns me of a collision, even if there is no one there. I have to override it by stepping on the gas pedal until I’m through.

I’ve also felt it hiccup on a test strip where they were testing radars, I was guessing it was due to them using similar frequencies, but I’m not sure on that one.

Re: MadRadar attack causes automotive radar to 'hallucinate'

#16

Spoofing radar signals isn't exactly new, and the ability to do it on the ground (so to speak) shouldn't be surprising. The military has been doing it for decades. Also, it doesn't take nearly the sophistication of the system demo'ed here -- a chaff canister released into traffic would, I imagine, play twenty kinds of havoc on any autonomous driving system that relied on radar.

I think what's important here is not this first low-level stab at manipulating car radar systems. It makes a beach head on what adversaries can possibly do and demonstrates that manufacturers need to try harder.

Re: MadRadar attack causes automotive radar to 'hallucinate'

#17
What's funny is that so much effort is going into these radar systems for non-autonomous vehicular systems that can be resolved by teaching people how to correctly set their side mirrors to cover their blind spots. You eliminate your blind spots by moving your side mirrors out enough that you can't see the sides of your car without tilting your head a little. You don't need to see your own car in your side mirrors.

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a15131074/how-to-adjus...

After I got my most recent vehicle I discovered it has a 24GHz rear-facing radar in order to alert me to a possible car in my blind spots. It misfires all the time and alerts me to guard rails and phantoms that don't exist. I don't need it, because I now keep my side mirrors set correctly I know where cars are beside me before the radar knows. I turn it off but now I'm curious if that actually deactivates the radar emitter or just stops alerting me to hits.

Re: MadRadar attack causes automotive radar to 'hallucinate'

#18

What's funny is that so much effort is going into these radar systems for non-autonomous vehicular systems that can be resolved by teaching people how to correctly set their side mirrors to cover their blind spots. You eliminate your blind spots by moving your side mirrors out enough that you can't see the sides of your car without tilting your head a little. You don't need to see your own car in your side mirrors. h…

This - and turning your head when changing lanes in vehicles without proper curved side mirrors save lifes too.

Re: MadRadar attack causes automotive radar to 'hallucinate'

#19
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even ignoring the possibility of intentional jamming, I wonder if the increase in radar-equipped cars will start causing significant interference in other cars' operations. Every once in a while I get a phantom "brake!" signal when there is nothing in front of me.

Just about every Toyota sold in the past few years has a radar unit on its bumper. Pretty sure if there was going to be interference naturally from a lot of vehicles, we would have seen it already.

I'm sure they tests their vehicles to prevent the scenario where their own cars interfere with each other.

Re: MadRadar attack causes automotive radar to 'hallucinate'

#20

Spoofing radar signals isn't exactly new, and the ability to do it on the ground (so to speak) shouldn't be surprising. The military has been doing it for decades. Also, it doesn't take nearly the sophistication of the system demo'ed here -- a chaff canister released into traffic would, I imagine, play twenty kinds of havoc on any autonomous driving system that relied on radar.

I think what's important here is not this first low-level stab at manipulating car radar systems. It makes a beach head on what adversaries can possibly do and demonstrates that manufacturers need to try harder.

I wonder how much effort is warranted though.

If people want to mess up traffic they can drop a concrete block off an overpass, run a heavy chain across the road, change signage, use tire shredders or do any number of antisocial things. Many of which are extremely cheap and not preventable.

Probably the most novel factor would be that sensor disruption is more deniable than many other threats to drivers.

But how much additional cost/expense would that justify? Technically mitigating every risk isn't really possible, at some point you have to fall back to the legal system.

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