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Toyota to invest $1.3B in Kentucky factory to build battery packs and new EV

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Re: Toyota to invest $1.3B in Kentucky factory to build battery packs and new EV

#11

Post by psychlops »

earthwalker99 wrote: post #9
itsoktocry wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ford made these same promises 2 years ago then bailed when the interest rate rose. Sometimes investment makes sense, and then things change and it doesn't make sense anymore. That's fair, isn't it?

Fair? What would that even mean? These empty promises are how we ended up electing Trump the first time and it's virtually guaranteeing that we'll elect him a second time. Rural Kentucky is in horrible shape and a lot of people here were placing hope in this, much like they have so many other empty promises from their leaders, so at least stop acting surprised when the consequences show themselves.

He means that companies exist to make a profit, supply customers and their needs and to pay employees.

If they make a promise to spend money and economic conditions change to the extent that they would lose money, it makes sense to not continue with that commitment.

Comparing a company making a profit with a politician trying to get elected is not fair.

Re: Toyota to invest $1.3B in Kentucky factory to build battery packs and new EV

#12

Post by _ea1k »

itsoktocry wrote: post #5
psychlops wrote: post #2

How much does Toyota pay in taxes in Kentucky or are we subsidizing the factory?

I don't think there is such thing as manufacturing investment without subsidization any more. And it most often results in the Winner's Curse: the entity providing the greatest subsidies win's the "investment", but they give up so much in the process that the economic benefits are wiped out. See: Tesla in Buffalo, VW in Ontario, FoxConn in Wisconsin.

I'm not sure if I agree, tbh. You've certainly brought up some good cases of failures, but what about:

Tesla in Sparks NV, BMW in Greer SC, or Mercedes in Alabama and SC? It seems like those have more than paid for themselves by now. In at least one of those cases, they've had huge regional impacts.

Re: Toyota to invest $1.3B in Kentucky factory to build battery packs and new EV

#13

Post by _ea1k »

kjksf wrote: post #7

$1.3B seems like a lot of money but it isn't for a car factory, especially spread over many years. For context: Tesla is guiding for $10+B a year capex spending for the next 3 years. Nevada factory took $6.2B and Tesla plans to spend additional $3.6B Toyota is still under-investing in EV. $1.3B is nothing. https://www.tesla.com/blog/continuing-our-investment-nevada

Yeah, it must be less than 1% of revenue. Probably a lot less, given that it is likely spread over several years.

Re: Toyota to invest $1.3B in Kentucky factory to build battery packs and new EV

#14

Post by suoduandao3 »

kjksf wrote: post #7

$1.3B seems like a lot of money but it isn't for a car factory, especially spread over many years. For context: Tesla is guiding for $10+B a year capex spending for the next 3 years. Nevada factory took $6.2B and Tesla plans to spend additional $3.6B Toyota is still under-investing in EV. $1.3B is nothing. https://www.tesla.com/blog/continuing-our-investment-nevada

I do believe that Tesla's success in the last decade was in large part due to the fact it was the only technology company that could use all the money people were throwing at technology companies.

Re: Toyota to invest $1.3B in Kentucky factory to build battery packs and new EV

#15

Post by api »

itsoktocry wrote: post #5
psychlops wrote: post #2

How much does Toyota pay in taxes in Kentucky or are we subsidizing the factory?

I don't think there is such thing as manufacturing investment without subsidization any more. And it most often results in the Winner's Curse: the entity providing the greatest subsidies win's the "investment", but they give up so much in the process that the economic benefits are wiped out. See: Tesla in Buffalo, VW in Ontario, FoxConn in Wisconsin.

It's true globally too. China heavily subsidizes their industrial base as do many other countries.

When everyone else is subsidizing you have to subsidize too or you lose.

Re: Toyota to invest $1.3B in Kentucky factory to build battery packs and new EV

#16

Post by jgalt212 »

_ea1k wrote: post #13
kjksf wrote: post #7

$1.3B seems like a lot of money but it isn't for a car factory, especially spread over many years. For context: Tesla is guiding for $10+B a year capex spending for the next 3 years. Nevada factory took $6.2B and Tesla plans to spend additional $3.6B Toyota is still under-investing in EV. $1.3B is nothing. https://www.tesla.com/blog/continuing-our-investment-nevada

Yeah, it must be less than 1% of revenue. Probably a lot less, given that it is likely spread over several years.

It feels "right-sized" given Toyota's approach towards EV's and the slowing adoption rate of EVs in the US.

Re: Toyota to invest $1.3B in Kentucky factory to build battery packs and new EV

#17

Post by xyst »

On the bright side, some manufacturing jobs brought state side. On the other hand, it’s in KY. These multibillion dollar deals tend to land in states with the lowest cost of living, non-educated workforce, minimal enforcement/respect of environment (dump waste into rivers), and tend to be subsidized at the state and local levels.

Apple opened up shop outside of Austin (ie, not Travis County) because of lower taxes and more incentives provided by other county. Multi Trillion dollar company by the way. Amazon has been opening up warehouses in the sticks, soaking up all of those incentives from those desperate small towns looking to giveaway the land for a couple of decades in exchange for short term gains (mayor/city council able to say, we brought X jobs to Y town!1). Yet another multibillion company taking advantage of the desperate.

What do the people get in return? Getting the opportunity to work shit hours in a non-union job. Possibly back breaking work. No investment in their future. Just cogs in the wheel which are completely fungible (broke your back? File a claim with insurance. Fuck off. Deal with it. Not our problem. Then hire the next sucker to replace you. Rinse and repeat)

Re: Toyota to invest $1.3B in Kentucky factory to build battery packs and new EV

#18

Post by anonylizard »

suoduandao3 wrote: post #14
kjksf wrote: post #7

$1.3B seems like a lot of money but it isn't for a car factory, especially spread over many years. For context: Tesla is guiding for $10+B a year capex spending for the next 3 years. Nevada factory took $6.2B and Tesla plans to spend additional $3.6B Toyota is still under-investing in EV. $1.3B is nothing. https://www.tesla.com/blog/continuing-our-investment-nevada

I do believe that Tesla's success in the last decade was in large part due to the fact it was the only technology company that could use all the money people were throwing at technology companies.

Softbank's belief was that throwing capital would just make things work. But from wework to many other of their startups shows its not the case.

Telsa had to deploy their capital very efficiently in a capital intensive industry. Say their bet on the Shanghai factory, despite obvious IP leak risks and spawning deadly competitors like BYD, was their only choice to reach scale at a low cost.

Re: Toyota to invest $1.3B in Kentucky factory to build battery packs and new EV

#19

Post by xyst »

psychlops wrote: post #2

How much does Toyota pay in taxes in Kentucky or are we subsidizing the factory?

Let’s be honest. Southern state probably lured them in with a nice package.

Toyota has been moving ops to states with lower cost of living for awhile now. Toyota corp in USA shifted ops from CA to TX a decade back. Many workers hate or regret the move. C-level executives are excited because they pay less in state taxes. Probably even got a nice deal on the land.

Re: Toyota to invest $1.3B in Kentucky factory to build battery packs and new EV

#20

Post by Xirgil »

xyst wrote: post #17

On the bright side, some manufacturing jobs brought state side. On the other hand, it’s in KY. These multibillion dollar deals tend to land in states with the lowest cost of living, non-educated workforce, minimal enforcement/respect of environment (dump waste into rivers), and tend to be subsidized at the state and local levels. Apple opened up shop outside of Austin (ie, not Travis County) because of lower taxes an…

Yeah, those poor towns should just remain poor, definitely don't spend a billion dollars there, that would be terrible for them.
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