Live data from Hacker News

How to write a novel using the snowflake method (2013)

advancedfictionwriting.com

11–20 of 49 posts

Re: How to write a novel using the snowflake method (2013)

#11

I'm curious to know if authors of great books know the "ending" ahead of time? In Stephen King's case, I'd say "no". In John Irving's case, where the ending is often "put the book down in awe", I'd assume he MUST, right? I'd love to write a book, I have ideas, I just don't know if I'll ever have a good ending. This must be the curse of most aspiring writers!?

I imagine writing a book where you know the ending (not just the final scene, but the whole complete solution to the plot) beforehand is so boring, it would make writing the damn thing impossible. I mean at that point it's pretty much a coloring book. You came up with the shapes, for sure, but still.

source - have written long-form fiction

Re: How to write a novel using the snowflake method (2013)

#12

I'm curious to know if authors of great books know the "ending" ahead of time? In Stephen King's case, I'd say "no". In John Irving's case, where the ending is often "put the book down in awe", I'd assume he MUST, right? I'd love to write a book, I have ideas, I just don't know if I'll ever have a good ending. This must be the curse of most aspiring writers!?

There are a number of descriptors that all tend to mean the same thing for the spectrum of writing styles at play here:

- Discovery / Outline

- Pantser / Plotter

- Gardner / Architect

Those labels apply to the extremes of either technique, and writers often fall somewhere more to one side or the other. Stephen King is a discovery writer. It's why his endings often fizzle. Brandon Sanderson is an outliner, which is why his novels tend to have a recognizable escalation to what fans have taken to calling "the Sanderlanche."

There's no right way to do it, and it really depends on what works for the writer.

Re: How to write a novel using the snowflake method (2013)

#13

Im not sure I get what a snowflake represents. Is each corner a detail in the story? Also, will this not just end up with a story that is without a clear red thread, seems like quite a disjointed way of writing.

> Also, will this not just end up with a story that is without a clear red thread, seems like quite a disjointed way of writing.

On the contrary, that's what this method is all about. You start with one clear through line, and you iterate multiple times, filling in more detail with each iteration. But, the through line remains.

Drawing the snowflake is the same. The initial attempt is low in detail, and you iterate on it, adding detail each time.

Re: How to write a novel using the snowflake method (2013)

#14

Im not sure I get what a snowflake represents. Is each corner a detail in the story? Also, will this not just end up with a story that is without a clear red thread, seems like quite a disjointed way of writing.

It's just step-wise refinement used to build an outline.

I kind of like Jim Butcher's take on the process, instead: https://jimbutcher.livejournal.com/461.html

You'll have to page through these, and an ad blocker is strongly recommended as that LiveJournal site is ad-fested (it didn't used to be that way... he wrote it in 2004 when it used to be friendlier).

Re: How to write a novel using the snowflake method (2013)

#15

I'm curious to know if authors of great books know the "ending" ahead of time? In Stephen King's case, I'd say "no". In John Irving's case, where the ending is often "put the book down in awe", I'd assume he MUST, right? I'd love to write a book, I have ideas, I just don't know if I'll ever have a good ending. This must be the curse of most aspiring writers!?

Do you know the “ending” of a piece of software before you write it?

Obviously it varies a lot, based on the type of project and your own personal methodology. Sometimes you might be able to say yes, sometimes you might have to say no. In some cases the question won’t even make sense. And in all cases you might suspect that the person asking the question is misunderstanding something fundamental about the working process.

Re: How to write a novel using the snowflake method (2013)

#16
post #5

I'm curious to know if authors of great books know the "ending" ahead of time? In Stephen King's case, I'd say "no". In John Irving's case, where the ending is often "put the book down in awe", I'd assume he MUST, right? I'd love to write a book, I have ideas, I just don't know if I'll ever have a good ending. This must be the curse of most aspiring writers!?

From my experience, you don’t need to know the exact ending but you should have a general idea of where stuff needs to go. Knowing the end state makes planning the events and character development easier, and can help you avoid pacing problems. You can create the structure working backwards from the end state. When I write I usually think about what needs to happen to get everything to where it “needs to be” in a com…

> makes planning the events and character development easier

My impression is that it makes the former easier and the latter harder.

Having a planned-out plot-focused story can lead you to a very tight, satisfying climax. But it can often make the characters feel wooden or like they are acting out of character in order to do what the plot needs them to do.

When a writer focuses more on the fidelity of a character's inner psychology, they can write more believable, interesting characters. But they sometimes get stuck in the position of "The plot needs them to do X but their psychology makes it more likely they would do Y." Then the author has to decide whether they keep the plot on rails and sacrifice some character fidelity, or have the story meander more to keep the characters feeling rich and authentic.

At one end of that continuum, you have thrillers and action novels where characters are little more than a bullet list of personality archetypes, but a bunch of cool shit happens and the pacing is perfectly dialed in. At the other end, you have literary fiction where you feel like you're getting a window into the minds of actual people, but nothing really happens.

Re: How to write a novel using the snowflake method (2013)

#17

OT: Just decided a new reading rule for myself: when a popup interrupts my reading I'll ask myself "Does finding out what this says based on what little I know so far matter to me?" If the answer is not a resounding "yes!", I close the tab.

I often enter in something along the lines of "ffsgivememorethan5secondsbeforeaskingmetosignup@notcoming.back" with the hope that a human reads the email logs at some point.

Re: How to write a novel using the snowflake method (2013)

#18

I'm curious to know if authors of great books know the "ending" ahead of time? In Stephen King's case, I'd say "no". In John Irving's case, where the ending is often "put the book down in awe", I'd assume he MUST, right? I'd love to write a book, I have ideas, I just don't know if I'll ever have a good ending. This must be the curse of most aspiring writers!?

I imagine writing a book where you know the ending (not just the final scene, but the whole complete solution to the plot) beforehand is so boring, it would make writing the damn thing impossible. I mean at that point it's pretty much a coloring book. You came up with the shapes, for sure, but still. source - have written long-form fiction

I mostly share this experience, but for me it's a little bit more complicated.

I've tried to completely pants a story, and I've also tried planning stories out ahead of time in extremely rigorous detail, and I've ended up deciding to stay sort of in the middle. I generally have a pretty detailed idea of where I want a story to start and end, even down to some sense of how to get there, usually composed of some of the big events or set pieces or that happen in between, so I'm not pure pantsing, but then I just sort of find out as I go along how I get between each point, and really revel that process of finding out.

I think I've ended up writing things this way precisely because on the one hand writing a story based on a complete outline is extremely boring, it essentially becomes work, it just isn't Fun anymore, but on the other hand, I am an extremely set piece motivated writer — I am motivated to write things by specific scenes that I want to have happen or even specific vivid images — and so those scenes, spaced throughout my narrative, sort of act as the carrot on the end of the stick to get me to keep going to find out how I get there. If I go into writing a story without a sufficient string of high points and an ending, I'll tend to just sort of vaguely peter out after the last cool idea I did have in mind when I started and then lose interest eventually.

Re: How to write a novel using the snowflake method (2013)

#19

I'm curious to know if authors of great books know the "ending" ahead of time? In Stephen King's case, I'd say "no". In John Irving's case, where the ending is often "put the book down in awe", I'd assume he MUST, right? I'd love to write a book, I have ideas, I just don't know if I'll ever have a good ending. This must be the curse of most aspiring writers!?

>In Stephen King's case, I'd say "no".

Haha! I his case I don't think he has anything figured out. I think as he's writing it, he's discovering what the characters are doing and is in just as much shock as we are.

Re: How to write a novel using the snowflake method (2013)

#20

I'm curious to know if authors of great books know the "ending" ahead of time? In Stephen King's case, I'd say "no". In John Irving's case, where the ending is often "put the book down in awe", I'd assume he MUST, right? I'd love to write a book, I have ideas, I just don't know if I'll ever have a good ending. This must be the curse of most aspiring writers!?

I've read that it's common for mystery writers to start with the ending and work their way backwards so the clues all line up.
Post reply on HN