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The medieval habit of 'two sleeps' (2022)

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Re: The medieval habit of 'two sleeps' (2022)

#11

Post by bemusedthrow75 »

defrost wrote: post #7
lmm wrote: post #3

Has this evidence been examined sceptically? I've heard this theory a few times, but it always sounds like one person's obsession, and I struggle to credit it.

Hardly a singular obsession of one person when we have both Vigil and Matins as standards of the canonical hours for much of the past two thousand years of church records. The article outlines multiple examples of references to first and second sleep periods in official court documents, and points to sleep studies of farmers in rural areas who still 'almost wake' not long after midnight. As a pre industrial habit it…

> Hardly a singular obsession of one person

The parent post means the study of the practice, not the practice itself.

It might make sense -- I think it probably does -- but that doesn't mean that it's not true, when you dig into it, that the major study here is Ekrich and all the articles about it, articles about Ekrich.

Making intuitive sense isn't really enough. It's difficult to study the habits of the long dead, but the parent poster is right to be skeptical of the nature of coverage.

Re: The medieval habit of 'two sleeps' (2022)

#12

Post by m463 »

eschulz wrote: post #4
rappatic wrote: post #2

It's so interesting to me that fundamental ways of life like this can go nearly undocumented save passing references. We know a lot more about the annals of Greek history, for example, because that's what was written down. Ekirch took years to rediscover all these references to biphasic sleep because it was so fundamentally normal that historic writers never thought to focus on it. Now, with our obsessive encyclopedi…

I think that future generations may forget most details of our way of life. However, as you said, it won't be due to lack of a historical record, but instead it will be due to a lack of interest in uneventful details combined with a plethora of information. I think with history we often have no clue about certain details even though the evidence is right in front of us; it's just not something we find interesting.

I've been reading the book Debt by David Graeber, and it went a lot of places I didn't expect. I suspect a lot of things we would take interest in are just not written down, or not commonly explored. For example, it was common for people to visit all their neighbors each day. It was also common for people to give each other gifts, not too large or too small or too equal to form a community.

Re: The medieval habit of 'two sleeps' (2022)

#13

Post by jeffhuys »

klyrs wrote: post #9
eschulz wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that future generations may forget most details of our way of life. However, as you said, it won't be due to lack of a historical record, but instead it will be due to a lack of interest in uneventful details combined with a plethora of information. I think with history we often have no clue about certain details even though the evidence is right in front of us; it's just not something we find interesting.

> I think that future generations may forget most details of our way of life. Oh no what will future generations do without doomscrolling.

You might be projecting there.

Re: The medieval habit of 'two sleeps' (2022)

#14

Post by klyrs »

jeffhuys wrote: post #13
klyrs wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think that future generations may forget most details of our way of life. Oh no what will future generations do without doomscrolling.

You might be projecting there.

Oooh, and projecting. Will they even know what they've lost?

(tongue firmly in cheek, I hope you understand)

Re: The medieval habit of 'two sleeps' (2022)

#15

Post by dguest »

bemusedthrow75 wrote: post #6
lmm wrote: post #3

Has this evidence been examined sceptically? I've heard this theory a few times, but it always sounds like one person's obsession, and I struggle to credit it.

You are right (and very observant) that this is mostly Ekrich when you dig into it. I didn't realise this until quite recently, and I too had assumed there was a lot more work about this. But what he's found in literature is pretty consistent, and biphasic sleep was once quite normal in a specific context: the siesta. It's dying out in continental Europe alas -- a lost cultural touchstone -- and in the contemporary W…

Question for people who sleep like this: do you live with anyone? How do they tolerate it? I can't imagine it's great to wake up to your roommate scraping pans in the kitchen on odd nights.

Re: The medieval habit of 'two sleeps' (2022)

#16

Post by hsbauauvhabzb »

dguest wrote: post #15
bemusedthrow75 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are right (and very observant) that this is mostly Ekrich when you dig into it. I didn't realise this until quite recently, and I too had assumed there was a lot more work about this. But what he's found in literature is pretty consistent, and biphasic sleep was once quite normal in a specific context: the siesta. It's dying out in continental Europe alas -- a lost cultural touchstone -- and in the contemporary W…

Question for people who sleep like this: do you live with anyone? How do they tolerate it? I can't imagine it's great to wake up to your roommate scraping pans in the kitchen on odd nights.

By not scraping pans in the middle of the night.

Bigger, and well built dwellings help, as do earbuds and soft shoes.

Re: The medieval habit of 'two sleeps' (2022)

#17

Post by bemusedthrow75 »

dguest wrote: post #15
bemusedthrow75 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are right (and very observant) that this is mostly Ekrich when you dig into it. I didn't realise this until quite recently, and I too had assumed there was a lot more work about this. But what he's found in literature is pretty consistent, and biphasic sleep was once quite normal in a specific context: the siesta. It's dying out in continental Europe alas -- a lost cultural touchstone -- and in the contemporary W…

Question for people who sleep like this: do you live with anyone? How do they tolerate it? I can't imagine it's great to wake up to your roommate scraping pans in the kitchen on odd nights.

(Who scrapes? There are better ways.)

I do not. And no, it isn't.

My dad, I think, had occasionally polyphasic sleep, and he often took on-call rota slots as a result. He'd be in the kitchen cleaning, or in his study, but since the house was big, it was rarely a problem. Sometimes he'd be napping in his study, and I know he slept easily on the train to and from work (with an efficiency that meant he woke up a minute before his stop on the way home).

When I was a student I just forced my polyphasic sleep periods into normal sleep as best I could, which typically manifests a bit like delayed sleep phase; by the middle of the week I was two hours behind everyone else, and I actually did worse in the courses that had early Friday lectures. But when you're a student, being awake or asleep at odd hours is normal enough not to be remarked upon.

As a programmer, polyphasic sleep is sometimes unnoticeable to others. These days probably more apparent in git commit logs.

Re: The medieval habit of 'two sleeps' (2022)

#18

Post by Ekaros »

klyrs wrote: post #9
eschulz wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that future generations may forget most details of our way of life. However, as you said, it won't be due to lack of a historical record, but instead it will be due to a lack of interest in uneventful details combined with a plethora of information. I think with history we often have no clue about certain details even though the evidence is right in front of us; it's just not something we find interesting.

> I think that future generations may forget most details of our way of life. Oh no what will future generations do without doomscrolling.

How well doomscrolling and were it happens is documented in historic documents? Just food for thought...

Re: The medieval habit of 'two sleeps' (2022)

#19

Post by defrost »

bemusedthrow75 wrote: post #11
defrost wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hardly a singular obsession of one person when we have both Vigil and Matins as standards of the canonical hours for much of the past two thousand years of church records. The article outlines multiple examples of references to first and second sleep periods in official court documents, and points to sleep studies of farmers in rural areas who still 'almost wake' not long after midnight. As a pre industrial habit it…

> Hardly a singular obsession of one person The parent post means the study of the practice, not the practice itself. It might make sense -- I think it probably does -- but that doesn't mean that it's not true, when you dig into it, that the major study here is Ekrich and all the articles about it, articles about Ekrich. Making intuitive sense isn't really enough. It's difficult to study the habits of the long dead,…

Aside from Ekrich - who can at least point to the extracts he has found in historic archives, there are sleep study results that suggest humans still have remnant night waking behaviour; these fall into the intuitive.

Which leaves what I first raised - a thousand years of documented broken sleep by monks in monestaries getting up to pray late at night and again early in the morning.

Some might write that off as hair shirt behaviour by religuous fanatics intent on punishing themselves, others might take it as evidence that people of those times were living with punctuated sleep cycles and those that went to serve their God took to praying when they woke as a matter of course.

There's also the evidence of sleep in Spain and other warmer climes, with additional sleeping during the hottest parts of the day, staying up later, sleeping less during the night and rising earlier before the sun.

It's Ekrich's hobby horse, many niche areas have few champions, but it's not exactly the case that he is drawing on forged entries with no other examples to be found.

Re: The medieval habit of 'two sleeps' (2022)

#20

Post by bemusedthrow75 »

hsbauauvhabzb wrote: post #16
dguest wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Question for people who sleep like this: do you live with anyone? How do they tolerate it? I can't imagine it's great to wake up to your roommate scraping pans in the kitchen on odd nights.

By not scraping pans in the middle of the night. Bigger, and well built dwellings help, as do earbuds and soft shoes.

I have to tell you, 4am-5am, between sleep phases, is the best time to clean a kitchen. It's vaguely contemplative and when you go into the kitchen later that day it's like the cleaning fairy did it.
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