On a slightly different topic, I was reading about other greek epics beyond Homer, and I knew there were things like the Theban Cycle and a broader Trojan War cycle, and it turns out that some of them may have never existed, they almost certainly weren't any kind of "cycle", the ones that did exist weren't very good, and that they may never have been written down at all outside of summaries.
Ossian, the ‘Homer of the North’, the greatest literary hoax (2016)
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Re: Ossian, the ‘Homer of the North’, the greatest literary hoax (2016)
#12I’m fascinated by the Ossian affair. But I don’t get the premise of this article. The “social network” of characters in Ossian is closer to characters in Irish legends than to Homer? You would expect that even if it had been authentic ancient legends. I’m sure if you compare Volsung Saga to Nibelungenlied you will also get closer matching networks, since they are based on the same ancient body of legends.
Re: Ossian, the ‘Homer of the North’, the greatest literary hoax (2016)
#13>Now scientists have used mathematical techniques to compare patterns in the “social networks” of characters in Ossian with those in two key Irish stories – and discovered they are almost a perfect match, virtually ending any remaining debate. Seems like a flimsy argument, irrespective of the other evidence.
Not really. If I write a series of stories about Herlock Solmes and his friend Dr. Wohn Jatson and everything maps up one-to-one with the Sherlock stories, it's pretty clear I copied them even if I changed the names. Or to give a real example, consider the famous silent movie "Nosferatu". While it was theoretically about a vampire named Count Orlock being visited at his castle by a lawyer named Thomas Hutter and how Orlock ends up moving to Hutter's city and attacking his family, it is pretty obviously the story of Count Dracula and Jonathan Harker, and the widow of Dracula's author sued the makers over it.
Re: Ossian, the ‘Homer of the North’, the greatest literary hoax (2016)
#14>Now scientists have used mathematical techniques to compare patterns in the “social networks” of characters in Ossian with those in two key Irish stories – and discovered they are almost a perfect match, virtually ending any remaining debate. Seems like a flimsy argument, irrespective of the other evidence.
Not really. If I write a series of stories about Herlock Solmes and his friend Dr. Wohn Jatson and everything maps up one-to-one with the Sherlock stories, it's pretty clear I copied them even if I changed the names. Or to give a real example, consider the famous silent movie "Nosferatu". While it was theoretically about a vampire named Count Orlock being visited at his castle by a lawyer named Thomas Hutter and how…
Yes, but you don't need a social network graph for the cases you describe. As you say, they're obviously the same story with some names changed.
This article seems to claim that two stories had the same social graphs, but weren't obviously the same story. I find that a bit hard to believe.
Re: Ossian, the ‘Homer of the North’, the greatest literary hoax (2016)
#15Read it in grad school (for an English PhD). And honestly, that's the only context in which I'd recommend doing so. It's a dreary slog of a book; we were reading it more for its historical importance than for any particular literary quality. But I don't recall anyone at the time (mid 90s) doubting that the book was a forgery -- a somewhat inept mish-mash of Celtic literary figures and motifs. The interesting part was…
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Re: Ossian, the ‘Homer of the North’, the greatest literary hoax (2016)
#16I guess it's a hoax? And not just a pen name, writing under the guise of a fictional person?
Not the first or best time that's been done. A long and proud history, up to and including 'The 13th Warrior' and 'The DaVinci Code'.
Re: Ossian, the ‘Homer of the North’, the greatest literary hoax (2016)
#17Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not really. If I write a series of stories about Herlock Solmes and his friend Dr. Wohn Jatson and everything maps up one-to-one with the Sherlock stories, it's pretty clear I copied them even if I changed the names. Or to give a real example, consider the famous silent movie "Nosferatu". While it was theoretically about a vampire named Count Orlock being visited at his castle by a lawyer named Thomas Hutter and how…
Yes, but you don't need a social network graph for the cases you describe. As you say, they're obviously the same story with some names changed. This article seems to claim that two stories had the same social graphs, but weren't obviously the same story. I find that a bit hard to believe.
Even if they were, how would they know the Irish stories weren't derivative?
Re: Ossian, the ‘Homer of the North’, the greatest literary hoax (2016)
#18When Ridley Scott's Napoleon came out, I picked up Napoleon: A Life by Andrew Roberts. Turns out Napoleon kept a copy of Ossian on him at all times during his war campaigns. Going deeper into the rabbit hole, I bought a copy of Ossian.
My pet theory is that he cribbed a lot of inspiration from Ossian for his famous harangues to his army before pivotal moments in battle.
"Farewell, thou bravest of men! Thou conqueror in the field! But the field shall see thee no more; nor the dark wood be lightened with the splendor of thy steel. Thou hast left no son. But the song shall preserve thy name. Future times shall hear of thee; they shall hear of the fallen Morar."
As Will Ferrell said, it gets the people going.
Re: Ossian, the ‘Homer of the North’, the greatest literary hoax (2016)
#19What was the original source that Macpherson was supposed to be translating from? An ancient book? Oral tradition? Something else?
He claimed he had collected and recorded orally transmitted verse, just like other folklorists did at the time. It is still unclear whether he made it all up or whether some of the material was indeed based on now lost oral sources.
An interesting comparison is Finnish folklorist Einar Lönnrot who collected the “national epic” Kalevala. We know Lönnrot largely used authentic oral sources, but he combined fragmented songs into a long narrative with his own edits and additions to make it more epic.
Re: Ossian, the ‘Homer of the North’, the greatest literary hoax (2016)
#20Read it in grad school (for an English PhD). And honestly, that's the only context in which I'd recommend doing so. It's a dreary slog of a book; we were reading it more for its historical importance than for any particular literary quality. But I don't recall anyone at the time (mid 90s) doubting that the book was a forgery -- a somewhat inept mish-mash of Celtic literary figures and motifs. The interesting part was…
Nabokov spoke with respect of it in the introduction to his translation of the epic of Prince Igor. (Or so I recall--it has been a while since I read it.) He knew perfectly well that it was a forgery, but the translations into Continental languages may have been better than the English. Clearly they answered a felt need.