I'm begging you, stop thinking hydrogen is viable or ever will be.
Future power systems with today's weather
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Re: Future power systems with today's weather
#12One part not considered is the grid connections - esp across time zones or geographies.
Some examples:
The SunCable link between Australia and Singapore https://www.suncable.energy/our-projects
The Viking Link from Demark to the UK https://www.euronews.com/business/2024/01/16/uk-and-denmark-...
Re: Future power systems with today's weather
#13Hydrogen might prove too nasty for long-term storage. Methanol on the other hand can be produced from syngas, so hydrogen and CO: https://netl.doe.gov/research/carbon-management/energy-syste...
It’s expensive to capture co2 though. And once you do that, it’s cheaper to sequester the co2 and burn nat gas.
Re: Future power systems with today's weather
#14Hydrogen might prove too nasty for long-term storage. Methanol on the other hand can be produced from syngas, so hydrogen and CO: https://netl.doe.gov/research/carbon-management/energy-syste...
In summers there can be virtually unlimited sunlight near the poles. Think: Scandinavia.
So what's an easy-to-store way to stockpile it? Methanol? Ammonia? What else?
I'm thinking household-scale here. DIY.
Re: Future power systems with today's weather
#15Cool toy, but this is a basic simulation of energy markets. You can't talk about future power systems without addressing system inertia, unless you dont care about being realistic.
What inertia do you mean? Demand or supply? Sure, decomissioning anuclear plant takes decades but a coal plant can be shut down in about 48 hours I think and at that point produces no new emissions...
"Inertia" in the context of power systems refers to the kinetic energy stored by rotating generators (coal, gas, nuclear, hydropower).
If the system frequency (a real time measure of supply and demand) were to suddenly change (e.g. a power plant were to trip), these generators are still spinning, and dampen the rate of change of frequency. This allows time for the grid operator to take corrective actions.
Inverter connected plant such as wind and solar does not inherently provide inertia.
Re: Future power systems with today's weather
#16Hydrogen might prove too nasty for long-term storage. Methanol on the other hand can be produced from syngas, so hydrogen and CO: https://netl.doe.gov/research/carbon-management/energy-syste...
In summers there can be virtually unlimited sunlight near the poles. Think: Scandinavia. So what's an easy-to-store way to stockpile it? Methanol? Ammonia? What else? I'm thinking household-scale here. DIY.
Or import it as gas/liquids from other countries, which probably accounts for the majority of energy in the majority of countries today.
EVs and renewables will decrease the amount of imports needed for most countries, but a reduced amount might still be needed for some nations.
Only difference will be a less cartelized supply since there's a lot of countries that can set up solar and wind for export.
Re: Future power systems with today's weather
#17I'm begging you, stop thinking hydrogen is viable or ever will be.
Viable for what?
Currently most fertilizer is made with hydrogen that's separated from methane and the CO2 vented.
It's about 2% of global emissions.
Ammonia and Methanol and other efuels for shipping and flight generally require hydrogen as a building block.
The Hydrogen Ladder diagram lays out the areas where Hydrogen is necessary and where better current alternative tech exists. It gets updated every so often as tech progresses but generally shouldn't see any major changes.
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/hydrogen-ladder-version-50-mi...
Re: Future power systems with today's weather
#18I'm begging you, stop thinking hydrogen is viable or ever will be.
Viable for what? Currently most fertilizer is made with hydrogen that's separated from methane and the CO2 vented. It's about 2% of global emissions. Ammonia and Methanol and other efuels for shipping and flight generally require hydrogen as a building block. The Hydrogen Ladder diagram lays out the areas where Hydrogen is necessary and where better current alternative tech exists. It gets updated every so often as t…
Long-term storage and power generation. Of course it's essential as chemical feedstock but that's a necessity, not convenience. If it were (chemically) easy to use, say, the hydrogen in water molecules you bet it'd be used instead.
Re: Future power systems with today's weather
#19Earlier quoted context omitted.
Viable for what? Currently most fertilizer is made with hydrogen that's separated from methane and the CO2 vented. It's about 2% of global emissions. Ammonia and Methanol and other efuels for shipping and flight generally require hydrogen as a building block. The Hydrogen Ladder diagram lays out the areas where Hydrogen is necessary and where better current alternative tech exists. It gets updated every so often as t…
Long-term storage and power generation. Of course it's essential as chemical feedstock but that's a necessity, not convenience. If it were (chemically) easy to use, say, the hydrogen in water molecules you bet it'd be used instead.
Well, long duration grid balancing gets a B on the ladder.
Short duration grid balancing gets an E as renewables/batteries compete.
And power generation with no storage component gets a G, the lowest score possible.
Re: Future power systems with today's weather
#20> "There are multi-day periods with low wind and solar output." That's the real problem. Days of storage are required if most power is coming from non-dispatchable sources. Batteries are not cost-effective for that, at least not at present. Electricity to hydrogen and back is maybe 30% efficient. Pumped storage is much more efficient but you need the right geography - two nearby lakes at very different elevations. Th…
Note that the simulation is only for Germany. If you add other countries to the grid, there will be less no solar-no wind days. But also peaking gas plants are not that bad. We should dream about a zero emission scenary, but a 90% less emissions is not bad either, and we can always get better and better. This is, in fact, the current trend: each month is cleaner than the last.
> Note that the simulation is only for Germany. If you add other countries to the grid, there will be less no solar-no wind days.
But more transmission losses.