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It's time to give up on shaming big tech companies for their low tax rates

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Re: It's time to give up on shaming big tech companies for their low tax rates

#11

Post by Symmetry »

ebbv wrote: post #2

It's not shaming them for their tax rates -- we should shame Congress for not raising taxes, if we all agree taxes should be higher on large corporations. It's shaming them for legal, but unethical behavior. There's a lot of behavior that falls into the area of "legal, but shitty." Large corporations gaming the system to avoid paying taxes falls into that. Don't kid yourself that we can ever totally eliminate this ki…

I'm not sure you're right to single out corporations here. It seems like all the Real People I know who are aware of simple things they could do to pay less in taxes end up doing them as well.

Re: It's time to give up on shaming big tech companies for their low tax rates

#12

Post by bicknergseng »

swombat wrote: post #8
ebbv wrote: post #2

It's not shaming them for their tax rates -- we should shame Congress for not raising taxes, if we all agree taxes should be higher on large corporations. It's shaming them for legal, but unethical behavior. There's a lot of behavior that falls into the area of "legal, but shitty." Large corporations gaming the system to avoid paying taxes falls into that. Don't kid yourself that we can ever totally eliminate this ki…

Is exploiting tax loopholes really unethical? Some would argue that the government is the biggest waste of money there is. I'm not saying that's my belief, but let's entertain that thought for a minute. If you believe that the government wastes most, say 95%, of its money on stupid things that should never receive a dollar from anyone (like the war in Iraq, to pick a random one), and you believe that you personally c…

Fabulous argument for benevolent dictatorships.

Re: It's time to give up on shaming big tech companies for their low tax rates

#13

Post by alphakappa »

Karunamon wrote: post #10
archgoon wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you feel should be cut in government? Where do you feel that money is being misappropriated?

Off the top of my head: * Million dollar Vegas conferences? (Recent GSA scandal) * Guantanamo Bay * Unnecessary military bases all over the world Give me a day and access to the books for any branch of government and I would bet my life savings on being able to find hundreds of thousands of wasted dollars, if not millions.

The US federal budget is in Trillions. If you can find wastes that range in "hundreds of thousands of wasted dollars, if not millions", they are just a negligible drop in the bucket and it would serve purely to distract from the bigger expenditures.

If you were to really spend time on such an exercise, it would be more useful to find the big items that can be reformed, not the minuscule ones that would take up a lot of mindshare but ultimately change nothing.

Re: It's time to give up on shaming big tech companies for their low tax rates

#14

Post by jbooth »

swombat wrote: post #8
ebbv wrote: post #2

It's not shaming them for their tax rates -- we should shame Congress for not raising taxes, if we all agree taxes should be higher on large corporations. It's shaming them for legal, but unethical behavior. There's a lot of behavior that falls into the area of "legal, but shitty." Large corporations gaming the system to avoid paying taxes falls into that. Don't kid yourself that we can ever totally eliminate this ki…

Is exploiting tax loopholes really unethical? Some would argue that the government is the biggest waste of money there is. I'm not saying that's my belief, but let's entertain that thought for a minute. If you believe that the government wastes most, say 95%, of its money on stupid things that should never receive a dollar from anyone (like the war in Iraq, to pick a random one), and you believe that you personally c…

It's unethical because we're all on the hook for the money the government spends. That's the social contract. If you think the war in Iraq was a big waste of money (as I do), then great, lobby against that. But once the decision's made, we're all on the hook for the money and wiggling out is akin to welching on a bet or defaulting on a loan when you have the money to pay.

Funnily enough, most of the people who complain about "wasteful government spending" were the the loudest advocates of the Iraq war and the expanded modern security state. It turns out everything became way more wasteful and tyrannical on a single day in January 2009.

Re: It's time to give up on shaming big tech companies for their low tax rates

#15

Post by jbooth »

Symmetry wrote: post #11
ebbv wrote: post #2

It's not shaming them for their tax rates -- we should shame Congress for not raising taxes, if we all agree taxes should be higher on large corporations. It's shaming them for legal, but unethical behavior. There's a lot of behavior that falls into the area of "legal, but shitty." Large corporations gaming the system to avoid paying taxes falls into that. Don't kid yourself that we can ever totally eliminate this ki…

I'm not sure you're right to single out corporations here. It seems like all the Real People I know who are aware of simple things they could do to pay less in taxes end up doing them as well.

Difference being that Real People can't spend 10 million setting up foreign subsidiaries in order to avoid taxation on a billion in income. Different math comes into play when you can fill an office building with lawyers for your tax policy.

Re: It's time to give up on shaming big tech companies for their low tax rates

#16

Post by jbooth »

Karunamon wrote: post #10
archgoon wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you feel should be cut in government? Where do you feel that money is being misappropriated?

Off the top of my head: * Million dollar Vegas conferences? (Recent GSA scandal) * Guantanamo Bay * Unnecessary military bases all over the world Give me a day and access to the books for any branch of government and I would bet my life savings on being able to find hundreds of thousands of wasted dollars, if not millions.

You already have a day and access to the books.

Go read them. Military procurement in particular is an amazing one if you're looking for waste and corruption.

Re: It's time to give up on shaming big tech companies for their low tax rates

#17

Post by mattmanser »

swombat wrote: post #8
ebbv wrote: post #2

It's not shaming them for their tax rates -- we should shame Congress for not raising taxes, if we all agree taxes should be higher on large corporations. It's shaming them for legal, but unethical behavior. There's a lot of behavior that falls into the area of "legal, but shitty." Large corporations gaming the system to avoid paying taxes falls into that. Don't kid yourself that we can ever totally eliminate this ki…

Is exploiting tax loopholes really unethical? Some would argue that the government is the biggest waste of money there is. I'm not saying that's my belief, but let's entertain that thought for a minute. If you believe that the government wastes most, say 95%, of its money on stupid things that should never receive a dollar from anyone (like the war in Iraq, to pick a random one), and you believe that you personally c…

Unfortunately you've missed the point of why it is unethical, everyone else has to pay more to support your avoidance instead.

If they paid their way then the overall tax rate would be lower for everyone, instead of just for the rich. The irony being they're the ones who need it the least.

So effectively Bill Gates made the decision to make everyone else pay more tax so that he could go and cure Malaria in Africa. Causing babies to die in America instead. His tax avoidance can be indirectly linked to other people's deaths. That wasn't his decision to make and was unethical.

It's stealing but in a weird way. And by people who don't actually need to steal but just do it because they can.

Re: It's time to give up on shaming big tech companies for their low tax rates

#18

Post by byrneseyeview »

ebbv wrote: post #2

It's not shaming them for their tax rates -- we should shame Congress for not raising taxes, if we all agree taxes should be higher on large corporations. It's shaming them for legal, but unethical behavior. There's a lot of behavior that falls into the area of "legal, but shitty." Large corporations gaming the system to avoid paying taxes falls into that. Don't kid yourself that we can ever totally eliminate this ki…

I don't understand why you'd trust a corporation more than Congress when it comes to how the tax code should work. If we all pay what we think we should owe, rather than what the rules tell us we actually owe, that would lead to chaos.

"If we all behaved the way corporations do" doesn't really mean anything. Corporations are people. It would be much more accurate to say "If all people behaved like the people who work at Apple, the world would be a worse place," but I don't think that's defensible at all.

If it does become a social norm to obey the law you wish Congress passed, instead of the law they actually passed, you're subsidizing people who ignore this norm. I wouldn't want to live in a world where RIMM out-competes Apple because Apple scrupulously follows good, imaginary rules, and RIMM scrupulously follows actual rules instead. This would all be a lot less meaningful if the US had lower corporate tax rates, but ours are effectively the highest in the world. Since the corporate tax rate is also the subsidy for hiding a given amount of income, it's no wonder that we lead the world in tax avoidance, too.

Re: It's time to give up on shaming big tech companies for their low tax rates

#19

Post by jemka »

archgoon wrote: post #9
jemka wrote: post #3

Shaming big public companies brings more attention to the discussion, which is a good thing, but I've always felt the entire focus was misdirected. How about ... spend less. Streamline that bloated money burning monstrosity called a government. "Who pays" is probably the last thing we should be talking about.

What do you feel should be cut in government? Where do you feel that money is being misappropriated?

>What do you feel should be cut in government? Where do you feel that money is being misappropriated?

I'm not for big government. So, I wouldn't go department by department and audit to find fraud, waste, and abuse. I used to get paid to do that for the defense department. It's a complete waste of time and ultimately a paper drill.

But what I want is moot. What I don't understand is why many others sit idly by and argue who is going to contribute X%, when they should be more skeptical about where the money is going in the first place. Regardless of who's money it is.

If the government was run more like a business (which there's no reason why it couldn't be) we wouldn't be having this discussion.

But for starters, how about term limits and contractual accountability for the leaders? This say one thing do another without recourse is getting old.

Re: It's time to give up on shaming big tech companies for their low tax rates

#20

Post by rprasad »

toddasmith wrote: post #7

How is it unethical for companies to legally pay low taxes? First, realize that a company's tax isn't money growing on trees. Companies pay these taxes by decreasing profits for shareholders, decreasing wages for employees, or increasing the prices of goods and services to consumers (and usually all three). Someone is hurt by collecting these taxes. The idea that government can then go on to spend this money in a way…

Money does not grow on trees; it does however grow in cotton plantations.

Corporate taxes decrease profits for shareholders, but do not decreas wages for employees. By definition, corporate taxes are taxes on profits, so employee wages have already been deducted from corporate revenues by the time the tax liability is determined.

Nobody is "hurt" collecting taxes. Taxes are simply a nonspecific bill from the government for a massive variety of services rendered directly or indirectly on behalf of the taxpayer.

Dividends and capital gains are taxed at lower rates than corporate tax rates. Thus, it is preferrable (from a revenue-generating viewpoint) to collect taxes from the corporation rather than from the dividend payments or the sale of stock. Even if the dividend preference expires, dividends will still be taxed at the individual's marginal rate, which is lower than the corporate income tax rate.

Taxes do not reduce the value of investing in companies. Under the time-value of money theory, if a tax can be deferred for 7-8 years, it is as if the tax was never owed. Thus, high taxes increase the value of investing in companies because the deferral opportunities of the corporate investment form offer greater "savings".

Finally, your last argument is logical nonsense. Paying less than the statutorilly declared tax rate is what people find unethical. Unethical does not mean "less ethical", it means "not ethical".

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