Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Norwegian: Bokmål vs. Nynorsk

sprakradet.no

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

11–20 of 163 posts

Re: Norwegian: Bokmål vs. Nynorsk

#11

Post by larsiusprime »

vidarh wrote: post #9
williamcotton wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you understand the extent of the variety of differences in spoken Norwegian. This is geographic in nature as most of the west coast is rock walls of varying height perpendicular to their emergence from the sea. This has led to isolated communities that continue to be isolated in various regards even to this day. Of the very little Norwegian that I speak, I do so in the Vestlandet dialect, meaning I woul…

It's even more complicated. I grew up north east of Oslo, but speak close to western Oslo dialect with some now pretty-conservative Bokmål use (to the point where your rendition of Oslo-dialect is entirely different to how I speak - e.g. I prominently pronounce the "l" in "skal" and my pronunciation of "kirken" has nothing resembling any "sh-" sound), partly due to my dad, partly because I grew up reading a lot of ol…

I grew up in a Norwegian ex-pat community in Houston, Texas, attending the local Norwegian language church there. The priest would get rotated out every few years, and I remember as a kid being fascinated by the roulette wheel of "which dialect is the next priest they send going to speak?"

Re: Norwegian: Bokmål vs. Nynorsk

#12

Post by vidarh »

vages wrote: post #10

Norwegian written and pronounced language was actually changed because one digit was added to phone numbers. Here is the long story: Starting after World War Two, the government made an attempt at _merging_ the two written languages. The imagined outcome was named “Samnorsk” (unified Norwegian), led by Språknemnda (The Language committee). The work mainly consisted of changing the grammar of certain words in the bokm…

The numbers switch was slow, though. My parents started school after the change was officially made in the 50's and would have learned the new forms in school, but still used the old form enough in the late 70's and 80's that I picked up a preference for it from them, and you still find people of my generation (I'm born in '75) using the old forms pretty often, if less now than when I was younger.

(If anyone here wonders if this is the same "Samnorsk" as in Vernor Vinge's "A Fire Upon the Deep": It is. For people who know Norwegian, Vinge's books have several Norwegian-inspired terms. E.g. "Nyjora" is "new earth".)

Re: Norwegian: Bokmål vs. Nynorsk

#13

Post by goblin89 »

The status of Norwegian Nynorsk is reminiscent of Yue/Cantonese. In areas where it is native, it’s used in writing more rarely (and very rarely in official writing) compared to Mandarin (a distinct, not mutually intelligible language) or English.

Another similarity is that Cantonese, like Nynorsk, is considered higher status where it’s spoken, and like Nynorsk it’s under somewhat of a threat so the communities know they have to keep it strong.

What makes it more interesting is that the non-phonetic, semi-ideographic nature of the writing system means no direct unambiguous translation between sound and written symbols—so that you may actually struggle to write down certain turns of spoken Cantonese, even if you are a native speaker!

Another difference is that, unlike Nynorsk (which began as “New Norwegian”), Cantonese is old—at least on par with or arguably older compared to languages used for writing in the same area.

Re: Norwegian: Bokmål vs. Nynorsk

#14

Post by ksimukka »

As a student of Bokmål (for immigration and integration), Nynorsk is an ongoing mystery to me.

I think that I'm still at the A level (A1/A2). My auditory processing disorder adds an extra variable that I'm still learning how to work with as an adult. If anyone (in Norway) knows of someone who has or is interested in APD (https://www.statped.no/horsel/andre-utfordringer/auditive-pr...), please reach out to me.

Anyways, always happy to see Norwegian related news in HN.

Re: Norwegian: Bokmål vs. Nynorsk

#15

Post by sakjur »

vages wrote: post #10

Norwegian written and pronounced language was actually changed because one digit was added to phone numbers. Here is the long story: Starting after World War Two, the government made an attempt at _merging_ the two written languages. The imagined outcome was named “Samnorsk” (unified Norwegian), led by Språknemnda (The Language committee). The work mainly consisted of changing the grammar of certain words in the bokm…

I think the right to left should be left to right in that last sentence? I was briefly confused by that and ended up reading your links (takk!)

Danish still use a somewhat complex infix system for reading numbers (five and half fours is 75), and I find that very confusing as a Swede who didn’t grow up with it.

Re: Norwegian: Bokmål vs. Nynorsk

#16

Post by The_Colonel »

vages wrote: post #10

Norwegian written and pronounced language was actually changed because one digit was added to phone numbers. Here is the long story: Starting after World War Two, the government made an attempt at _merging_ the two written languages. The imagined outcome was named “Samnorsk” (unified Norwegian), led by Språknemnda (The Language committee). The work mainly consisted of changing the grammar of certain words in the bokm…

> This was architected by the head of the telephone bureau in 1949, as an error reduction mechanism

I find it fascinating that the telephone bureau was powerful enough to initiate such language change. Imagine happening this today.

But this reminds me of the fact that in Czech we have both counting systems as well. The forward (english) counting is the standard, but the backward (german) is quite commonly used informally as well (it also has a certain poetic quality).

Learning German was for me a revelation of how much influence German had on the Czech language. There are of course loanwords (mostly in the dying dialects), but there's also a less obvious structural influence.

My favorite demonstration of this is the verb "vorstellen" - it has several meanings (physically put sth. forward, introduce, present, imagine). It turns out Czech has a fully native word (not a loanword) "představit" with an identical set of meanings and identical structure - "vor" is "před", "stellen" is "stavit". There are many words like that, and the counting system is likely another such "structural" influence.

I'm fully convinced that German is easier to learn for Czech speakers as opposed to English speakers, even though it's across language families. It's a language continuum after all ...

Re: Norwegian: Bokmål vs. Nynorsk

#17

Post by kombookcha »

sakjur wrote: post #15
vages wrote: post #10

Norwegian written and pronounced language was actually changed because one digit was added to phone numbers. Here is the long story: Starting after World War Two, the government made an attempt at _merging_ the two written languages. The imagined outcome was named “Samnorsk” (unified Norwegian), led by Språknemnda (The Language committee). The work mainly consisted of changing the grammar of certain words in the bokm…

I think the right to left should be left to right in that last sentence? I was briefly confused by that and ended up reading your links (takk!) Danish still use a somewhat complex infix system for reading numbers (five and half fours is 75), and I find that very confusing as a Swede who didn’t grow up with it.

Confusingly, Danish counting is also a mix of old norse counting systems (based on tens) and medieval ones (based on twenty) for maximum chaos. For instance the word for 40, fyrretyve (sounds like four-twenty), is derived from old norse fyritiughu, "four tens". It sounds like it SHOULD mean 80! But 80 is firs, or firsindstyve - four twenties.

Re: Norwegian: Bokmål vs. Nynorsk

#18

Post by vidarh »

goblin89 wrote: post #13

The status of Norwegian Nynorsk is reminiscent of Yue/Cantonese. In areas where it is native, it’s used in writing more rarely (and very rarely in official writing) compared to Mandarin (a distinct, not mutually intelligible language) or English. Another similarity is that Cantonese, like Nynorsk, is considered higher status where it’s spoken, and like Nynorsk it’s under somewhat of a threat so the communities know t…

Nynorsk is not considered higher status other than maybe by tiny groups of its users.

Re: Norwegian: Bokmål vs. Nynorsk

#19

Post by semi-extrinsic »

vidarh wrote: post #12
vages wrote: post #10

Norwegian written and pronounced language was actually changed because one digit was added to phone numbers. Here is the long story: Starting after World War Two, the government made an attempt at _merging_ the two written languages. The imagined outcome was named “Samnorsk” (unified Norwegian), led by Språknemnda (The Language committee). The work mainly consisted of changing the grammar of certain words in the bokm…

The numbers switch was slow , though. My parents started school after the change was officially made in the 50's and would have learned the new forms in school, but still used the old form enough in the late 70's and 80's that I picked up a preference for it from them, and you still find people of my generation (I'm born in '75) using the old forms pretty often, if less now than when I was younger. (If anyone here wo…

I think the old style of pronouncing numbers still lives on, especially for two-digit numbers and in certain dialects/sociolects. I certainly use it without making conscious effort, and I'm a 90s kid. My children again understand the system, but they rarely use it.

Re: Norwegian: Bokmål vs. Nynorsk

#20

Post by rob74 »

> Already around 1830, shortly after Norway’s separation from Denmark, there grew an uncertainty as to what to call the language. Some preferred Danish, just as most American nationals called their language English. Others insisted on Norwegian, just as some Americans preferred American; this usage, however, caused sharp reactions from some Danish circles.

Reminds me of other countries: Austrians (I think) have settled on calling their language "German" (which it is, of course). In Moldova, the question of whether to call the language "Romanian" (supported by those who want closer ties to Romania) or "Moldavian" (supported by those who favor independence or closer ties to Russia) has become a pretty divisive issue.

Post reply on HN