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Post-apocalyptic life in American health care

metarationality.com

11–20 of 189 posts

Re: Post-apocalyptic life in American health care

#11
I can relate to this experience, having been through it with multiple parents/in-laws. One thing I’ve learned: We are fortunate to be in a city large enough to support a large hospital (actually more than one) with many associated specialists and clinics. If you can stay inside one of these, where people are looking at the same records system and have personal contacts in the various clinics and services, things go so much more smoothly. In other words, try to stay within a single tribe.

Sadly, when you’re discharged to an SNF or rehab, that’s always outside the tribe, and you get the situation described here. Haven’t found a cheat code there yet.

Re: Post-apocalyptic life in American health care

#12

Knowing little about this - a genuine suspicion is - is this a feature, not a bug? As in - doesn’t this arise out of an incentive for health insurance companies NOT to cover procedures? I can only imagine that this bureaucratic tangle reduces insurance coverage by a very significant percentage. Aka - the kind of communication inefficiency must be profitable, no?

> As in - doesn’t this arise out of an incentive for health insurance companies NOT to cover procedures?

It's not that they're incentivized to not cover procedures, it's that everyone is incentivized to cover their ass unless regulations are really explicit. Since suing insurance companies is impractical for most people, it's really hard to turn that ass-covering in your favor unless a regulator gets involved.

Even something as basic as sharing notes becomes an ass-covering exercise lest someone use those notes against the doctor in malpractice suit or the data accidentally leaks leading to a HIPAA violation.

Re: Post-apocalyptic life in American health care

#13

I'd be great with a baseline medicare for all system publicly funded across the board with the option to pay more for privately funded better options. Not going to get that, or anything close to that, are we? I give up America, you get the health care you're willing to prioritize. Not my problem any more. That said, going out of network if you can and going to the places with the cases if you can are the only real cu…

The problem is that a public option must necessarily spend a lot more of its focus on preventative care that keeps people from developing serious chronic illness in the first place, for budgetary reasons. There are a lot of people staking their career prestige, high pay, and lifestyles on Americans having the freedom to get sick, seriously sick, on a regular and consistent basis. I'm happy to throw them under the bus…

Every single study I have seen refutes your point, which was commonly brought up during the Obamacare discussion days and never had any merit to begin with. Here's the NIH itself estimating a 13% savings compared to today: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8572548/

What you're missing is that the current "system" is so utterly wasteful and inefficient that even if we cover people's shitty lifestyle habits it would still be cheaper than what we have today. Which is basically what TFA's main point is about.

Re: Post-apocalyptic life in American health care

#14
After thinking about this a long time, and doing a lot of reading on the subject, here is my solution to American healthcare and perhaps in other countries with collapsing healthcare like the UK and Canada:

Most medical interventions, even ones that are serious like hip replacements, can be scheduled. It’s annoying while you are waiting, but it’s the rare case where emergency medical attention must be applied immediately.

All hospital systems should be deregulated - no more “certificates of need” and monopolist hospitals that can veto additional competition. If any entrepreneur wants to open a facility with licensed medical doctors, they should be able to service any and all ailments.

Finally, there will only be 2 official options for payment - retail and single payer. Single payer will kick in whenever bills go above $X, call it $50k. Retail will be out of pocket for anything lower, and people will shop for their own solutions. They can always buy additional insurance, and fund tax advantaged health savings account, but the single payer will not kick in until a catastrophic amount is reached.

The nightmare of medicine stems from the desire of doctors to be paid what they are worth, and the desire of government to cover everyone for “free” but never having enough money. We need to unshackle the market to let doctors get what they are worth, but drastically increase competition and the entrepreneurial animal instincts to destroy the bureaucratic mess that has bogged everything down.

Re: Post-apocalyptic life in American health care

#15
American healthcare is truly apocalyptic. It is the worst of all systems in the world. Even developing Asian countries have figured out better systems.

There is no one single root cause to fix here. The entire system needs to be uprooted - entire companies and shareholders will need to get wiped out. Unfortunately, ain't happening in ultra capitalist America.

For other countries, there is still hope.

Re: Post-apocalyptic life in American health care

#16
“Standardizing an interface between health care providers and insurance companies would be a huge win. No matter how badly designed, it would be better than the current mess, and save several percent of US GDP.”

A new regulation was actually proposed by the federal government a year ago to do that: https://www.cms.gov/priorities/key-initiatives/burden-reduct...

There’s also a new program to reduce fragmentation for dementia care in particular: https://www.cms.gov/priorities/innovation/innovation-models/...

Solving the sorts of problems highlighted in the article (from 2017) is well-recognized, by elected officials in 2023, as a priority of their constituents.

However, neither of the initiatives linked above will systematically address the underlying issues, which are:

1. Conflicting and overlapping objectives between federal, state and local governments, as well as between the different branches of government.

2. Partially privatized administration of government programs, such as Medicare. This inevitably results in further conflicts of objectives, and incentivizes gaming the system.

3. The only real way for the government to learn from failure, and adapt to it, is by creating a mountain of new regulations, which just makes everything more expensive / take longer.

4. Extreme caution, in regulated industries, around sharing information with external parties, due to liability concerns. This drives further consolidation.

Re: Post-apocalyptic life in American health care

#17
for people outside the sphere of US healthcare it can best be compared to the Warhammer 40,000 series Adeptus Administratum. Such is its immense size, that whole departments of the Administratum have been submerged by a sea of complex bureaucracy, becoming lost in loops of paper trails. Other departments have continued to dogmatically operate and carry out their founding function, even if the intent and requirement behind them no longer even exists.

Re: Post-apocalyptic life in American health care

#18

Knowing little about this - a genuine suspicion is - is this a feature, not a bug? As in - doesn’t this arise out of an incentive for health insurance companies NOT to cover procedures? I can only imagine that this bureaucratic tangle reduces insurance coverage by a very significant percentage. Aka - the kind of communication inefficiency must be profitable, no?

It is a feature. People need to look at this from the same angle as dark patterns. The goal with all of these interconnected but disjointed systems is so that the person holding the bag is constantly changed.

It's unfortunate that the author of this article in question manages to take away the wrong impression.

> It’s obvious how to fix health care. Just make everything run systematically, like FedEx or Amazon. There are no technical or business obstacles to this. Anyone who understands IT and/or business can see how to do it.

> Health care is notionally a profit-driven free market. This looks like an easy opportunity to make trillions of dollars by making the world better for everyone. Why doesn’t someone do that?

The thing they miss is that healthcare companies are already making trillions of dollars. They make trillions because the system they designed is working as intended. You look at other countries and how their healthcare systems work and you will see a vast difference in functionality and efficiency. Because they know healthcare being a for-profit driven industry with weak government controls leads to the shitshow we have in America.

Re: Post-apocalyptic life in American health care

#19
My boyfriend woke up one day to find out they couldn't pee. After a few ER visits and an MRI, they determined he had Stage 2 bladder cancer. However, because they had the audacity to seek immediate medical treatment for a life threatening health issue, they have now been saddled with thousands of dollars in medical debt. I had to personally dip into my earnings from my Big Tech internship to help pay some of it off. Luckily through their job they have some of the best medical insurance in the state and have been getting treatment at UT Southwestern. They pay little, but there was an instance where one of their physicians had to appeal to insurance to get a scan done (thankfully the insurance acquiesced). It doesn't make sense and all this debate around single payer healthcare is just obfuscation and distraction from investigating actual solutions. The vast majority of doctors genuinely want to help people and are more I interested in practicing the skills they've honed for decades rather than deal with faceless automata at health insurance companies who deny claims upon a mere glance. As long as people like Rick Scott can not only get away with introducing inefficiencies in the system, but defraud people and get away with it with no consequences other than personal enrichment, we are doomed.

Re: Post-apocalyptic life in American health care

#20
Having been on the inside of insurer, facility, and provider insurance systems doing automation work, author is almost right but misses the bespoke entity-entity contracts.

In short, "Can F1 send you to F2 to be paid by X?" turns on the following:

   - Regulations / laws
   - Contract with the insured (policy)
   - Contract between X and F2
The last is essentially "anything X and F2 strike a deal on."

So answering the question definitively requires 3-way parsing of those things. Which is generally a unique 3-tuple for any given patient-provider/facility-insurer combination.

The closest you get to standardization is "We work with X a lot, so generally know how they work."

And as article notes: regulations / laws change years, policies generally remain somewhat stable (post-ACA standardization), and insurer-provider/facility contracts change whenever they're up for renewal.

In short, the system's complexity is what paralyzes it.

Which means simplification is the path forward.

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>> It’s obvious how to fix health care. Just make everything run systematically, like FedEx or Amazon. There are no technical or business obstacles to this. Anyone who understands IT and/or business can see how to do it.

Also, GOD NO.

Healthcare is complex because it's required to be a 1:1 model of reality. All of reality. Shark bite while riding a train that gets hit by a plane reality.

The reason healthcare is still largely manually done is that it was originally manually done.

It's gotten to where it is by progressive automating... but started at "I start the morning with a stack of paper forms on my desk, and work through them, forwarding them on as needed."

We're not looking at a breakdown of the system, but an incomplete automation. (And part of the current bottleneck is the Cambrian explosion of medical specialists in the last 30 years)

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