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Detecting Unwanted Location Trackers

datatracker.ietf.org

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Re: Detecting Unwanted Location Trackers

#11

Post by gruez »

ajb wrote: post #10
hedora wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems dead on arrival to me. The feature provides no benefit to end users, but severely reduces the legitimate functionality of the product. (For instance, this makes the products useless for preventing luggage theft.) At the same time, even if 99.9% of trackers have this built in, it still won’t prevent malicious use cases. Anyway, I’m hoping it will be dead on arrival, but I fear that corrupt law enforcement o…

Depends who you call an end user. These devices can't do anything on their own, they piggyback on the network of nearby phone users. If one is tracking you, it's likely using your phone, even if the actual owner is a stalker who's trying to figure out when you are in a secluded spot. Arguably, phone owners should get some kind of say in how this works.

>Arguably, phone owners should get some kind of say in how this works.

You as the phone owner can refuse to relay the tracker, but you shouldn't be able to disable it

Re: Detecting Unwanted Location Trackers

#12

Post by hedora »

ajb wrote: post #10
hedora wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems dead on arrival to me. The feature provides no benefit to end users, but severely reduces the legitimate functionality of the product. (For instance, this makes the products useless for preventing luggage theft.) At the same time, even if 99.9% of trackers have this built in, it still won’t prevent malicious use cases. Anyway, I’m hoping it will be dead on arrival, but I fear that corrupt law enforcement o…

Depends who you call an end user. These devices can't do anything on their own, they piggyback on the network of nearby phone users. If one is tracking you, it's likely using your phone, even if the actual owner is a stalker who's trying to figure out when you are in a secluded spot. Arguably, phone owners should get some kind of say in how this works.

If one is tracking me, you’re right, but the probability of that is low.

If one I own is tracking someone else, either they know it, and are OK with it, or they stole my stuff. The probability of this is at least 100x higher.

The vast majority of the market are people like me, and (unless they outlaw fleet management equipment and stolen property trackers) the criminals can and will be able to buy things that are better for stalking.

Edit: By better for stalking, I mean these trackers probably have battery lives measured in months, not years, and probably aren’t rated for being magnetically attached to a wheel well or vehicle undercarriage. I doubt they even have an option for wiring into automotive 12V. On top of that, they’re not going to provide the stalker with high time resolution traces of where they’ve been for the last year.

Re: Detecting Unwanted Location Trackers

#13

Post by khaki54 »

This is a perfect example of the road to hell being paved with good intentions. Cheap, fit for purpose tracking equipment has been available since the 90s and only become more capable.

These consumer grade air tag and tile devices are a practical way to track all your things, but allowing people to disable them or even alerting to their presence kind of defeats the purpose.

Re: Detecting Unwanted Location Trackers

#14

Post by fmajid »

This is the official joint proposal from Apple and Google. The problem is there is an irreconcilable conflict of interest between the needs of people who use trackers like AirTags for anti-theft purposes, and thus need them not to be detectable or possibly disabled by thieves, and the needs of people who are stalked to identify and disable trackers they don’t control. I don’t see how the conflict can be resolved, other than allowing only police to do that, but it would be very cumbersome for victims of stalking.

Also, since Apple’s Find My network is open to third-party manufacturers, unless they have some authentication mechanism, there is nothing preventing a manufacturer from defecting and implementing a tracker that uses the network, is not detectable by not having a beeper, but still implements the rest of the protocol to be locatable.

Re: Detecting Unwanted Location Trackers

#16

Post by yencabulator »

happeecaw231 wrote: post #15

How would it work if my tracker is with me on a train with 20 other people in close proximity for let’s say 5 hour trip? Would they all get warnings about my tracker that I am using for my own keys and also get to disable it?

In this RFC's terminology, in that case your tracker would be in near-owner mode, and not trigger those alerts. If your phone was turned off or out of battery, then yes then the other travelers would get warned about your tracker.

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-detecting-unwant...

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