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How Cars Turned Into Giant Killers

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Re: How Cars Turned Into Giant Killers

#11

Post by jamestimmins »

vlucas wrote: post #10

I am glad the article mentions CAFE standards. Government CAFE regulations are the primary reason vehicles like Trucks and SUVs have gotten so much larger in recent years, and almost no one talks about it when these conversations come up. Simply put, CAFE standards were modified to include a vehicle "footprint" measured in square feet in addition to vehicle weight. The larger the footprint, the lower the fuel efficie…

It seems like regulations are constantly shifting incentives in both obvious and non-obvious ways that create unintended consequences, and I wonder if this is a promising area for AI/LLM research.

Take a few AI agents, let them each be an archetypical player impacted by regulations (automakers, car buyers, etc), and then have them simulate a market and interactions to see what behaviors arise over time.

Re: How Cars Turned Into Giant Killers

#12

Post by [deleted] »

vlucas wrote: post #10

I am glad the article mentions CAFE standards. Government CAFE regulations are the primary reason vehicles like Trucks and SUVs have gotten so much larger in recent years, and almost no one talks about it when these conversations come up. Simply put, CAFE standards were modified to include a vehicle "footprint" measured in square feet in addition to vehicle weight. The larger the footprint, the lower the fuel efficie…

[deleted]

Re: How Cars Turned Into Giant Killers

#14

Post by willio58 »

It's sad that we've taken it so far. Cars don't inherently have to be death traps (see smaller cars in europe), and we shouldn't have to use them for basic needs like getting groceries, but to just keep making them bigger and more dangerous for those outside of the car is plain insane.

And now these death machines are going electric, which is slightly better but now they're wayy heavier. How many deaths are we going to need to see from the cybertrucks and Hummer EVs until regulation kicks in and makes us reconsider things?

Re: How Cars Turned Into Giant Killers

#15

Post by frumper »

willio58 wrote: post #14

It's sad that we've taken it so far. Cars don't inherently have to be death traps (see smaller cars in europe), and we shouldn't have to use them for basic needs like getting groceries, but to just keep making them bigger and more dangerous for those outside of the car is plain insane. And now these death machines are going electric, which is slightly better but now they're wayy heavier. How many deaths are we going…

The weight difference between a Camry and Model 3 isn't much heavier. You probably won't see a lot of deaths from hummer ev's because there just won't be very many.

Re: How Cars Turned Into Giant Killers

#16

Post by frumper »

dwallin wrote: post #8
RecycledEle wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the regulations and abusive media tactics that led to the near extinction of traditional (V8, rear wheel drive, American made) cars, which forced consumers to flee to the closest substitute: light trucks.

That seems disingenuous. No doubt there are some car owners who do care about these things, but the vast majority of drivers would likely be hard-pressed to know what type of engine their car has, or what the differences between rear and front drive are. Most people select cars based on some mix of cost, perceived safety, utility, and by what other people they know are getting. (edit) Went to add sourcing and was sur…

People saying that fuel efficiency is the most important factor often means a mid-sized SUV 3 row SUV rather than a Suburban.

Re: How Cars Turned Into Giant Killers

#17

Post by branperr »

jamestimmins wrote: post #11
vlucas wrote: post #10

I am glad the article mentions CAFE standards. Government CAFE regulations are the primary reason vehicles like Trucks and SUVs have gotten so much larger in recent years, and almost no one talks about it when these conversations come up. Simply put, CAFE standards were modified to include a vehicle "footprint" measured in square feet in addition to vehicle weight. The larger the footprint, the lower the fuel efficie…

It seems like regulations are constantly shifting incentives in both obvious and non-obvious ways that create unintended consequences, and I wonder if this is a promising area for AI/LLM research. Take a few AI agents, let them each be an archetypical player impacted by regulations (automakers, car buyers, etc), and then have them simulate a market and interactions to see what behaviors arise over time.

I believe this is related

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principal%E2%80%93agent_proble...

Re: How Cars Turned Into Giant Killers

#18

Post by willio58 »

frumper wrote: post #15
willio58 wrote: post #14

It's sad that we've taken it so far. Cars don't inherently have to be death traps (see smaller cars in europe), and we shouldn't have to use them for basic needs like getting groceries, but to just keep making them bigger and more dangerous for those outside of the car is plain insane. And now these death machines are going electric, which is slightly better but now they're wayy heavier. How many deaths are we going…

The weight difference between a Camry and Model 3 isn't much heavier. You probably won't see a lot of deaths from hummer ev's because there just won't be very many.

Just a quick google search shows

- Model 3: 3,862 to 4,048 lbs

- Camry: 3,310 to 3,595 lbs

Comparing those two lower numbers we see a 15.39% increase for model 3. That's significant when it comes to collisions with pedestrians.

It becomes really drastic when comparing trucks..

- Tacoma: 3,915 lbs

- Cybertruck: 6,843 lbs

54% increase. Sure, Cybertruck can pull more and whatever, but more than 99% of trips made in these behemoths will be to the grocery store/soccer games.

Don't get me wrong, I'm pro-EV. You can make up for a 15% weight difference by adding other safety features to a car. But it's when we talk about the cybertrucks and copy-cats to come that I think we need to seriously consider heavily regulating who drives those sorts of vehicles. I have a coworker who uses Tesla self-driving heavily, I've been in a near head-on collision in her model 3 due to it. She's getting a Cybertruck soon and I fear for the lives of those people daring to cross a street in front of that thing.

Re: How Cars Turned Into Giant Killers

#19

Post by frumper »

willio58 wrote: post #18
frumper wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The weight difference between a Camry and Model 3 isn't much heavier. You probably won't see a lot of deaths from hummer ev's because there just won't be very many.

Just a quick google search shows - Model 3: 3,862 to 4,048 lbs - Camry: 3,310 to 3,595 lbs Comparing those two lower numbers we see a 15.39% increase for model 3. That's significant when it comes to collisions with pedestrians. It becomes really drastic when comparing trucks.. - Tacoma: 3,915 lbs - Cybertruck: 6,843 lbs 54% increase. Sure, Cybertruck can pull more and whatever, but more than 99% of trips made in thes…

I wouldn't call 15% "way heavier". If it's close enough that the people in the car can make up the difference then it's close enough.

Also, why compare the Cybertruck Cyberbeast to a Tacoma, the low end of a Tacoma at that? It's more comparable to a Tundra or F150. You are trying to be disingenuous with that comparison.

Now that makes me look at your math for the cars. High end to high end is less. So, just a quick check of your numbers show you're trying to twist stuff on both conclusions.

Re: How Cars Turned Into Giant Killers

#20

Post by jamestimmins »

branperr wrote: post #17
jamestimmins wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like regulations are constantly shifting incentives in both obvious and non-obvious ways that create unintended consequences, and I wonder if this is a promising area for AI/LLM research. Take a few AI agents, let them each be an archetypical player impacted by regulations (automakers, car buyers, etc), and then have them simulate a market and interactions to see what behaviors arise over time.

I believe this is related https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principal%E2%80%93agent_proble...

Does it though? It seems like the Principal Agent problem arises when they're theoretically supposed to act on behalf of each other, but in reality they have their own incentives that undermine that effort. With legislation, the two parties are inherently in opposition, almost by design.
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