Apple to halt Apple Watch Series 9 and Ultra 2 sales in the US this week • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple to halt Apple Watch Series 9 and Ultra 2 sales in the US this week

#11

Post by llm_nerd » Mon, Dec 18, 2023, 3:29 PM UTC

crazygringo wrote: post #8

llm_nerd wrote: post #2

Initially I presumed this was a patent troll sitting on something obvious and trying to extort a big player. Reading about the actual story reveals a very different situation, and it's one in which Apple needs to pay an extremely heavy toll for scumbag behaviour. https://www.latimes.com/business/technology/story/2023-10-05... Apple did precisely the sorts of things that big companies are reviled for, and the only goo…

This is not obvious at all. Even Maximo's case has been whittled down from 103 instances of infringement to just 5: > In its initial filing with the ITC, Masimo accused Apple of 103 instances of patent infringement across five different patents. However, the ITC found that Apple infringed on only two patents, covering five different instances of patent infringements This is a borderline case and a final decision has…

>Even Maximo's case has been whittled down from 103 instances of infringement to just 5

That's like every ITC complaint in the history of ITC complaints. You throw everything at them and your best stuff sticks. They literally need one single complaint to stick, and they have 5. That is incredibly, overwhelmingly strong.

>Companies try to hire experts away from other companies all the time

Apple didn't just hire employees away from them. There would be nothing wrong with that (well, outside of the era of non-competes, which notably Apple was a big fan of and was a legal enforcer of, making that a humorous justification). Apple engaged in a classic "brain rape" to extract value without cost.

I'm a fan of Apple, but it is an extraordinarily greedy company. Maybe the greediest company in history. That is not a good trait, and it isn't beneficial to the industry as a whole.

Re: Apple to halt Apple Watch Series 9 and Ultra 2 sales in the US this week

#12

Post by crazygringo » Mon, Dec 18, 2023, 3:38 PM UTC

llm_nerd wrote: post #11

crazygringo wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not obvious at all. Even Maximo's case has been whittled down from 103 instances of infringement to just 5: > In its initial filing with the ITC, Masimo accused Apple of 103 instances of patent infringement across five different patents. However, the ITC found that Apple infringed on only two patents, covering five different instances of patent infringements This is a borderline case and a final decision has…

>Even Maximo's case has been whittled down from 103 instances of infringement to just 5 That's like every ITC complaint in the history of ITC complaints. You throw everything at them and your best stuff sticks. They literally need one single complaint to stick, and they have 5. That is incredibly, overwhelmingly strong. >Companies try to hire experts away from other companies all the time Apple didn't just hire emplo…

> Apple engaged in a classic "brain rape" to extract value without cost.

Hyperbolic, sexualized language isn't helpful here.

Why didn't Masimo counter Apple's offers and pay their employees what they are worth? I don't see how this isn't Masimo's fault when they certainly had the money to do it.

I know lots of cases where rival companies tried to hire engineers with highly domain-specific expertise away from rivals and failed, because those rivals would counter offers and provided a great, supportive work environment. If Masimo failed to do that, then that's their own fault.

I side with the employees here. Good on them for knowing their worth.

Re: Apple to halt Apple Watch Series 9 and Ultra 2 sales in the US this week

#13

Post by vGPU » Mon, Dec 18, 2023, 3:40 PM UTC

freedomben wrote: post #10

vGPU wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Masimo is a $billions dollar company. The description of a “David and Goliath” battle is a tad misleading. Sure, they acted scummy, but this is just typical BigCorp behavior where one huge corporation steals from another huge corporation.

I disagree. > Apple, of course, is one of the largest and most powerful companies in history — it’s the first to hit a $3-trillion — that’s trillion, with a T — market cap. Apple is at least 100 times bigger than Masimo, 500x based on the numbers in the article. Sounds David and Goliath to me. Add in the despicable behavior and you've got a story where real life is more than fiction could do.

This is literally standard corporate playbook behavior that has been utilized since the creation of corporations. In what possible way is it “more than fiction”?

Re: Apple to halt Apple Watch Series 9 and Ultra 2 sales in the US this week

#14

Post by chrisfinazzo » Mon, Dec 18, 2023, 3:43 PM UTC

llm_nerd wrote: post #2

Initially I presumed this was a patent troll sitting on something obvious and trying to extort a big player. Reading about the actual story reveals a very different situation, and it's one in which Apple needs to pay an extremely heavy toll for scumbag behaviour. https://www.latimes.com/business/technology/story/2023-10-05... Apple did precisely the sorts of things that big companies are reviled for, and the only goo…

Disclaimer: Not a lawyer

It isn't clear to me if Apple's internal team working on this was the original plan - think "embrace, extend, extinguish", or "we'll do the basics, everything else is a 'third-party opportunity'" - or if they were formed as a backstop in the event an acquisition or licensing deal didn't happen.

See also the current situation with AliveCor over ECG tech in the Apple Watch.

Bottom line, Masimo wants to be paid - which I get - but I think the case will also try to settle whether or not Apple (or anyone) can integrate these features in something that (legally speaking) isn't a medical device without paying licensing fees of some kind.

Re: Apple to halt Apple Watch Series 9 and Ultra 2 sales in the US this week

#15

Post by llm_nerd » Mon, Dec 18, 2023, 3:43 PM UTC

crazygringo wrote: post #12

llm_nerd wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Even Maximo's case has been whittled down from 103 instances of infringement to just 5 That's like every ITC complaint in the history of ITC complaints. You throw everything at them and your best stuff sticks. They literally need one single complaint to stick, and they have 5. That is incredibly, overwhelmingly strong. >Companies try to hire experts away from other companies all the time Apple didn't just hire emplo…

> Apple engaged in a classic "brain rape" to extract value without cost. Hyperbolic, sexualized language isn't helpful here. Why didn't Masimo counter Apple's offers and pay their employees what they are worth? I don't see how this isn't Masimo's fault when they certainly had the money to do it. I know lots of cases where rival companies tried to hire engineers with highly domain-specific expertise away from rivals a…

[flagged]

Re: Apple to halt Apple Watch Series 9 and Ultra 2 sales in the US this week

#16

Post by musictubes » Mon, Dec 18, 2023, 3:50 PM UTC

llm_nerd wrote: post #6

vGPU wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Masimo is a $billions dollar company. The description of a “David and Goliath” battle is a tad misleading. Sure, they acted scummy, but this is just typical BigCorp behavior where one huge corporation steals from another huge corporation.

They aren't the "little guy", but at the same time Apple is a $trillionX3 dollar company, so David vs Goliath seems pretty fair. It is a tiny operation relative to Apple.

What does the valuation of a company’s stock have to do with this? I keep hearing that Apple is a $3 trillion company but that is strictly a function of how investors value the company. Cash on hand is probably a better way to compare and here Apple is top dog I think.

Re: Apple to halt Apple Watch Series 9 and Ultra 2 sales in the US this week

#17

Post by patwolf » Mon, Dec 18, 2023, 3:56 PM UTC

crazygringo wrote: post #12

llm_nerd wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Even Maximo's case has been whittled down from 103 instances of infringement to just 5 That's like every ITC complaint in the history of ITC complaints. You throw everything at them and your best stuff sticks. They literally need one single complaint to stick, and they have 5. That is incredibly, overwhelmingly strong. >Companies try to hire experts away from other companies all the time Apple didn't just hire emplo…

> Apple engaged in a classic "brain rape" to extract value without cost. Hyperbolic, sexualized language isn't helpful here. Why didn't Masimo counter Apple's offers and pay their employees what they are worth? I don't see how this isn't Masimo's fault when they certainly had the money to do it. I know lots of cases where rival companies tried to hire engineers with highly domain-specific expertise away from rivals a…

> Why didn't Masimo counter Apple's offers and pay their employees what they are worth?

Was Apple paying them what they were worth, or did they pay them more than they were worth in order to damage Masimo? I don't think we know enough to say one way or the other. There must be some level at which poaching employees with inflated salaries crosses the line into anticompetitive territory.

Masimo is a profitable company, but that doesn't mean they can survive a bidding war against Apple.

Re: Apple to halt Apple Watch Series 9 and Ultra 2 sales in the US this week

#18

Post by llm_nerd » Mon, Dec 18, 2023, 3:59 PM UTC

musictubes wrote: post #16

llm_nerd wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They aren't the "little guy", but at the same time Apple is a $trillionX3 dollar company, so David vs Goliath seems pretty fair. It is a tiny operation relative to Apple.

What does the valuation of a company’s stock have to do with this? I keep hearing that Apple is a $3 trillion company but that is strictly a function of how investors value the company. Cash on hand is probably a better way to compare and here Apple is top dog I think.

Investors give Apple 500x more value than their opponent in this battle. I mean market cap (or maybe the more accurate enterprise value) is a pretty ordinary way or comparing the size of companies.

Apple could acquire Masimo in a stock swap and it would be barely a blip on their share dilution.

Re: Apple to halt Apple Watch Series 9 and Ultra 2 sales in the US this week

#19

Post by SllX » Mon, Dec 18, 2023, 4:12 PM UTC

freedomben wrote: post #10

vGPU wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Masimo is a $billions dollar company. The description of a “David and Goliath” battle is a tad misleading. Sure, they acted scummy, but this is just typical BigCorp behavior where one huge corporation steals from another huge corporation.

I disagree. > Apple, of course, is one of the largest and most powerful companies in history — it’s the first to hit a $3-trillion — that’s trillion, with a T — market cap. Apple is at least 100 times bigger than Masimo, 500x based on the numbers in the article. Sounds David and Goliath to me. Add in the despicable behavior and you've got a story where real life is more than fiction could do.

It’s still a multi-billion dollar company. At that scale, you’re not facing any real disadvantages in the legal process even against Apple unless your company is actively losing money already and you won’t have enough cash on hand to continue operating. A quick looksie at their financials indicates that is not the case here.

I don’t want to say Market Cap doesn’t matter, but man is it irrelevant to most discussions and mainly of use to PR agents that want to spin a David and Goliath story.

Re: Apple to halt Apple Watch Series 9 and Ultra 2 sales in the US this week

#20

Post by 8ytecoder » Mon, Dec 18, 2023, 4:33 PM UTC

patwolf wrote: post #17

crazygringo wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple engaged in a classic "brain rape" to extract value without cost. Hyperbolic, sexualized language isn't helpful here. Why didn't Masimo counter Apple's offers and pay their employees what they are worth? I don't see how this isn't Masimo's fault when they certainly had the money to do it. I know lots of cases where rival companies tried to hire engineers with highly domain-specific expertise away from rivals a…

> Why didn't Masimo counter Apple's offers and pay their employees what they are worth? Was Apple paying them what they were worth, or did they pay them more than they were worth in order to damage Masimo? I don't think we know enough to say one way or the other. There must be some level at which poaching employees with inflated salaries crosses the line into anticompetitive territory. Masimo is a profitable company,…

They’re worth what precisely what someone is willing to pay them. Their expertise is probably more valuable for Apple than Masimo. It would make sense for them to be able to work at Apple then.