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Virtual Machine as a core Android Primitive

android-developers.googleblog.com

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Re: Virtual Machine as a core Android Primitive

#11

Post by heavyset_go »

treyd wrote: post #8
wlesieutre wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe banking apps would let you run them on rooted phones if they were in an isolated VM

This nonsense means I just use them in the browser. There is no functionality the apps would provide me that makes it worth fighting with their superstitious nonsense.

Some banks already require you to install and use apps to approve of transactions made outside of the app.

When I traveled, this is how I was able to spend money without having to call my bank every time I tried to use my card in person.

Re: Virtual Machine as a core Android Primitive

#12

Post by ForkMeOnTinder »

So on desktop, if I spin up a VM with networking disabled I feel pretty confident I can run anything safely, even malware is not going to escape.

What's the current state of the art for Android virtualization? Let's assume we're talking about the newest Pixel and newest Android version. Is there any way to safely run malware or the Facebook app in some sort of air-gapped container and throw it away when you're done?

Re: Virtual Machine as a core Android Primitive

#13

Post by heavyset_go »

ForkMeOnTinder wrote: post #12

So on desktop, if I spin up a VM with networking disabled I feel pretty confident I can run anything safely, even malware is not going to escape. What's the current state of the art for Android virtualization? Let's assume we're talking about the newest Pixel and newest Android version. Is there any way to safely run malware or the Facebook app in some sort of air-gapped container and throw it away when you're done?

Pretty sure Android already uses Linux containers/namespaces for app isolation.

Re: Virtual Machine as a core Android Primitive

#14

Post by jeroenhd »

heavyset_go wrote: post #9
jeroenhd wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems like an excellent tool for digital ID cards, banks, government authentication apps, maybe 2FA apps, cryptocurrency wallets, you name it. Anything that's more important than a calculator. DRM and remote attestation already use a separate secure environment, so I don't see what would change by adding virtualisation.

Websites will require digital ID just to use them, along with remote attestation. They will also be able to ban or block you in an actually effective and comprehensive way. There will be a chilling effect because people won't want to upset their Google/Microsoft/Apple/Meta etc overlords by saying or doing the wrong thing, and then get locked out of services they need to exist in society, do their job, spend money, et…

Digital ID exists and is widely used, yet I only need to use my digital ID to authenticate with government services. Remote attestation is the norm for many types of apps already yet I can use my bank app on my rooted phone just fine, or use my phone to authenticate with my government's SSO system.

I'm no fan of the modern dependence on Play Services or Google's attempts to kill adblockers through remote attestation, but none of these technologies are inherently bad. Business devices authenticating to business websites should allow remote attestation to verify that their hardware has not been tempered with just as an extra security measure.

Maybe your government is more evil or incompetent than mine, but bad governments aren't going to he limited by technological concepts like these.

Re: Virtual Machine as a core Android Primitive

#15

Post by heavyset_go »

awoimbee wrote: post #5

Will this allow running linux VMs on any Android device ? Via something like nestbox: https://www.patreon.com/posts/74333551 ?

This is already possible if your phones ship with the KVM kernel module, like on some Pixel devices, but reading the article suggests that KVM will become standard on all Android devices to enable this.

edit: according to this[1], yes, the pKVM functionality that's standard in Android exposes KVM functionality so that you can run VMs on Android.

[1] https://www.xda-developers.com/android-13-dp1-google-pixel-6...

Re: Virtual Machine as a core Android Primitive

#16

Post by nl »

josephcsible wrote: post #2

Two-way isolation seems like it'd only be useful for DRM and Treacherous Computing.

This is such a bad take.

I'd love the easy ability to run confidential computing loads with fine grained control over the data it gets access to. You can do this now on the desktop using SGX (etc) but on mobile it's really hard.

As a specific example of this, it'd be great to be able to run Whisper continually and have strong, system level guarantees about what can read the data.

Re: Virtual Machine as a core Android Primitive

#17

Post by refulgentis »

nl wrote: post #16
josephcsible wrote: post #2

Two-way isolation seems like it'd only be useful for DRM and Treacherous Computing.

This is such a bad take. I'd love the easy ability to run confidential computing loads with fine grained control over the data it gets access to. You can do this now on the desktop using SGX (etc) but on mobile it's really hard. As a specific example of this, it'd be great to be able to run Whisper continually and have strong, system level guarantees about what can read the data.

I used to work at Google adjacent to this stuff and A) you wouldn't boot up a whole VM for this, on a phone, that'd be very wasteful B) there's much simpler ways to provide the same guarantee.

So in general, just would avoid labeling the quality of other people's takes. You never know who is reading yours

Re: Virtual Machine as a core Android Primitive

#18

Post by kiririn »

josephcsible wrote: post #2

Two-way isolation seems like it'd only be useful for DRM and Treacherous Computing.

Yep, you need only look at the number of server providers offering confidential computing (pretty much only the big 3) and the premium they charge for it (10x, except AWS “trust me bro” Nitro)

Confidential computing is cool and useful when you’re the one controlling the VM, but scary when you’re the one blindly running it on your hardware

Hopefully this gets (publicly!) backdoored like SEV, SGX, etc

Re: Virtual Machine as a core Android Primitive

#19

Post by zeusk »

nl wrote: post #16
josephcsible wrote: post #2

Two-way isolation seems like it'd only be useful for DRM and Treacherous Computing.

This is such a bad take. I'd love the easy ability to run confidential computing loads with fine grained control over the data it gets access to. You can do this now on the desktop using SGX (etc) but on mobile it's really hard. As a specific example of this, it'd be great to be able to run Whisper continually and have strong, system level guarantees about what can read the data.

is it really? wasn't that the whole point of ARM TZ/SEP?

Re: Virtual Machine as a core Android Primitive

#20

Post by somanytta »

refulgentis wrote: post #17
nl wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is such a bad take. I'd love the easy ability to run confidential computing loads with fine grained control over the data it gets access to. You can do this now on the desktop using SGX (etc) but on mobile it's really hard. As a specific example of this, it'd be great to be able to run Whisper continually and have strong, system level guarantees about what can read the data.

I used to work at Google adjacent to this stuff and A) you wouldn't boot up a whole VM for this, on a phone, that'd be very wasteful B) there's much simpler ways to provide the same guarantee. So in general, just would avoid labeling the quality of other people's takes. You never know who is reading yours

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