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Loongson releases next-generation CPU

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Re: Loongson releases next-generation CPU

#11

Post by poizan42 »

BirAdam wrote: post #9
Qem wrote: post #4

Any chance systems based on it will be sold outside China?

The USA’s recent sanctions against the PRC has made Loongson forbidden if I remember correctly. Hopefully, this will change.

I was under the impression that the sanctions worked the other way around, i.e. Loongson can't buy a lot of things from American companies.

> Entities on the Entity List are prohibited from purchasing or licensing American technologies, even indirectly. For example, Loongson can't have its CPUs manufactured by American equipment, ruling out most foundries with modern nodes.

According to https://www.techspot.com/news/97817-us-blacklists-china-loon...

Re: Loongson releases next-generation CPU

#12

Post by cyp0633 »

BirAdam wrote: post #7

I’d love to get my hands on one of these. They’re MIPS machines that are on-par with the Intel core i3 14100. Loongson is also involved with Deepin Linux, so they’re attempting to build out a Chinese-native technology stack. While I generally don’t care for things under control of the CCP due to surveillance concerns, I do love competition for bringing about new tech innovation. We’re now getting back to the 80s/90s…

It's Loongarch, some sort of MIPS + RISC-V.

Re: Loongson releases next-generation CPU

#13

Post by isopede »

jlokier wrote: post #5
saagarjha wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe the BIOS was open or something like that. In general, though, it is hard to have a meaningful consistent position here because you can have most of the software be open and some random peripheral with closed firmware can DMA all over everything it wants :/

That issue can be dealt with using an IOMMU under host control. Those limit where the peripheral can DMA regardless of its firmware.

Isn't this just an instance of "trusting trust?" How do you know the IOMMU hasn't been backdoored? "Open" firmware doesn't mean open RTL. Where is the line drawn?

Re: Loongson releases next-generation CPU

#14

Post by Dylan16807 »

isopede wrote: post #13
jlokier wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That issue can be dealt with using an IOMMU under host control. Those limit where the peripheral can DMA regardless of its firmware.

Isn't this just an instance of "trusting trust?" How do you know the IOMMU hasn't been backdoored? "Open" firmware doesn't mean open RTL. Where is the line drawn?

Whether you want open firmware in the first place is a significantly different question from how you isolate hardware with closed firmware.

But more directly, worrying about one part having a backdoor is a lot better than worrying about twenty parts having a backdoor.

Re: Loongson releases next-generation CPU

#15

Post by unwind »

cyp0633 wrote: post #12
BirAdam wrote: post #7

I’d love to get my hands on one of these. They’re MIPS machines that are on-par with the Intel core i3 14100. Loongson is also involved with Deepin Linux, so they’re attempting to build out a Chinese-native technology stack. While I generally don’t care for things under control of the CCP due to surveillance concerns, I do love competition for bringing about new tech innovation. We’re now getting back to the 80s/90s…

It's Loongarch, some sort of MIPS + RISC-V.

Wikipedia [1] has some more details, but not too many on the main page itself.

Also from the top of that page I learned that "Loongson" means "Dragon Core" which to me as a westerner makes it sound very clearly Chinese (because dragons) but also a lot cooler (because ... dragons!). Nice.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loongson#LoongArch

Re: Loongson releases next-generation CPU

#18

Post by throwaway4good »

bilekas wrote: post #17
DeathArrow wrote: post #16

Why do they use 12nm process node as opposed to SMIC 5nm or 7nm? Too expensive?

I think it's down to the technological challenges that involves and they are just not there yet.

So far it appears that Huawei is the only Chinese firm producing chips on 7nm; while western commenters have stated that it is a SMIC process - I don't actually think they know for sure as none of these companies have made it official - in other words the process may be proprietary to Huawei.

However 7nm is in volume production at a level so high that can do non-critical projects such as the Mate 60 phone rather than just the stuff where all imports to China are sanctioned (high-end AI chips, chips for spacefaring, and military).

Likely other sanctioned Chinese chip designers will use the process as it appears that Chinese authorities want internal competition rather than just have one single dominant company (Huawei).

Re: Loongson releases next-generation CPU

#19

Post by throwaway4good »

BirAdam wrote: post #7

I’d love to get my hands on one of these. They’re MIPS machines that are on-par with the Intel core i3 14100. Loongson is also involved with Deepin Linux, so they’re attempting to build out a Chinese-native technology stack. While I generally don’t care for things under control of the CCP due to surveillance concerns, I do love competition for bringing about new tech innovation. We’re now getting back to the 80s/90s…

It is the golden age if you are a Chinese chip designer or operating systems engineer; getting to reinvent/rebuild the whole computing stack.

Re: Loongson releases next-generation CPU

#20

Post by BSDobelix »

throwaway4good wrote: post #18
bilekas wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's down to the technological challenges that involves and they are just not there yet.

So far it appears that Huawei is the only Chinese firm producing chips on 7nm; while western commenters have stated that it is a SMIC process - I don't actually think they know for sure as none of these companies have made it official - in other words the process may be proprietary to Huawei. However 7nm is in volume production at a level so high that can do non-critical projects such as the Mate 60 phone rather than…

>So far it appears that Huawei is the only Chinese firm producing chips on 7nm

True a good video about it from Asianometry

"China's 7nm Semiconductor Breakthrough"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KrdcTsScKk

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