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Simple streetlight hack could protect astronomy from urban light pollution

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Re: Simple streetlight hack could protect astronomy from urban light pollution

#11

Post by nightowl_games »

tdubhro1 wrote: post #7

Great idea and demo but tough to see many municipalities refitting their street lighting to keep astronomers happy. Might be easier to persuade them to just turn streetlights off completely for a few hours a night, at least then there’s some cost saving. Maybe in the future when we all have smart glasses with night vision mode and self driving cars we’ll look back at citywide streetlights as a quaint and inefficient…

> we all

A common mistake technologists make is to conflate the technologically illiterate with the entirety of the population. I can't overstate how technologically stratified we are and I believe his trend will only worsen. As technology advances, we will see the literate move forward and the majority stay relatively still. We will only see further stratification. We must assimilate this truth into our strategy.

Re: Simple streetlight hack could protect astronomy from urban light pollution

#12

Post by da768 »

bradley13 wrote: post #5

Right. They're going to get all the streetlights in an entire city to blink in unison. Sure they are. Anyway, in most cases the LEDs don't run at 100%. In our area a, I happen to know that they are between 29% and 40%. That dimming is accomplished by blinking. Which would conflict with the idea of having them blink synchronously. Much simpler solution: ensure the LEDs ghts are directed exclusively downward, and have…

Why not, just sync them to the AC power grid they're all powered from.

Re: Simple streetlight hack could protect astronomy from urban light pollution

#13

Post by Marsymars »

nightowl_games wrote: post #8
bradley13 wrote: post #5

Right. They're going to get all the streetlights in an entire city to blink in unison. Sure they are. Anyway, in most cases the LEDs don't run at 100%. In our area a, I happen to know that they are between 29% and 40%. That dimming is accomplished by blinking. Which would conflict with the idea of having them blink synchronously. Much simpler solution: ensure the LEDs ghts are directed exclusively downward, and have…

> Even better: turn the darned things off when they are not needed - why illuminate empty streets? That is a way better idea than the one in the article, for sure. So many benefits. Would need the motion sensing technology to be top notch tho. Need to illuminate for pedestrians as well. Or perhaps illuminated sidewalks, or smaller lights for pedestrians.

Some of the newer street lamps in my area have smaller light for pedestrians! They're mounted at human height and shine down on the sidewalk.

Motion sensing, I find, similar to LED technology, is often used more for increasing lighting levels rather than decreasing. My pet peeve are people who have motion sensors that activate their 20k lumen floodlights based on motion on the public sidewalk. Cities should not allow those.

Re: Simple streetlight hack could protect astronomy from urban light pollution

#14

Post by zokier »

> But there is a downside to LEDs: They're much brighter than old-fashioned energy-guzzling light bulbs.

Such a weird statement to make. LEDs are not somehow intrisically brighter than other light sources, it is simply a design parameter. If new LED lights are brighter than whatever they replaced, it is because someone purchased lamps with higher light output, not because they are LEDs. You can get plenty bright without LEDs too.

Re: Simple streetlight hack could protect astronomy from urban light pollution

#15

Post by ikekkdcjkfke »

nightowl_games wrote: post #8
bradley13 wrote: post #5

Right. They're going to get all the streetlights in an entire city to blink in unison. Sure they are. Anyway, in most cases the LEDs don't run at 100%. In our area a, I happen to know that they are between 29% and 40%. That dimming is accomplished by blinking. Which would conflict with the idea of having them blink synchronously. Much simpler solution: ensure the LEDs ghts are directed exclusively downward, and have…

> Even better: turn the darned things off when they are not needed - why illuminate empty streets? That is a way better idea than the one in the article, for sure. So many benefits. Would need the motion sensing technology to be top notch tho. Need to illuminate for pedestrians as well. Or perhaps illuminated sidewalks, or smaller lights for pedestrians.

I it find harder to see objects under street lights than a person with a head lamp or a car, everything just blends into one color

Re: Simple streetlight hack could protect astronomy from urban light pollution

#16

Post by Anotheroneagain »

nightowl_games wrote: post #8
bradley13 wrote: post #5

Right. They're going to get all the streetlights in an entire city to blink in unison. Sure they are. Anyway, in most cases the LEDs don't run at 100%. In our area a, I happen to know that they are between 29% and 40%. That dimming is accomplished by blinking. Which would conflict with the idea of having them blink synchronously. Much simpler solution: ensure the LEDs ghts are directed exclusively downward, and have…

> Even better: turn the darned things off when they are not needed - why illuminate empty streets? That is a way better idea than the one in the article, for sure. So many benefits. Would need the motion sensing technology to be top notch tho. Need to illuminate for pedestrians as well. Or perhaps illuminated sidewalks, or smaller lights for pedestrians.

No it's a horrible idea, imagine the lights turning on and off as people pass. No!

Re: Simple streetlight hack could protect astronomy from urban light pollution

#17

Post by dahart »

bradley13 wrote: post #5

Right. They're going to get all the streetlights in an entire city to blink in unison. Sure they are. Anyway, in most cases the LEDs don't run at 100%. In our area a, I happen to know that they are between 29% and 40%. That dimming is accomplished by blinking. Which would conflict with the idea of having them blink synchronously. Much simpler solution: ensure the LEDs ghts are directed exclusively downward, and have…

Yes exactly, aim them downward and turn the unused ones off, which is most of them most of the time, and the problem will be solved for everyone. The reason we should do it is that it will save money and power for everyone, the night sky is just icing on the cake.

Getting lights to blink in unison is a neat idea, and technically not hard nor too expensive for new lighting. Personally I think the biggest problem with it is that cities aren’t going to agree to overhaul all existing outdoor lighting only for the sake of people using telescopes. Even if there was widespread buy-in this is a project that could easy take 50 years or more, and cities might be reluctant to commit to this idea right when technology is rapidly changing.

Re: Simple streetlight hack could protect astronomy from urban light pollution

#18

Post by mdturnerphys »

wruza wrote: post #9

Ah, the good old "human eye can't see N Hz" that will make night lights insufferable for those who happen to see it. My grandma has a couple of lightbulbs in her apartment that annoy nobody except me. I feel like laser-blinded when they are on, no matter where I look. It's blindingly bright and visually dark. Idk if it's flicker frequency or light spectrum tbh, but it's that same "hey you shouldn't see it, cause nobo…

I wonder if your eyes move around a lot. It's known that we can see flicker in things like LEDs on a clock when our eyes move fast enough that subsequent flashes are sufficiently separated in the field of vision, particularly in our peripheral vision, and I've also experienced this with LED headlights while driving.

Re: Simple streetlight hack could protect astronomy from urban light pollution

#19

Post by continuational »

wruza wrote: post #9

Ah, the good old "human eye can't see N Hz" that will make night lights insufferable for those who happen to see it. My grandma has a couple of lightbulbs in her apartment that annoy nobody except me. I feel like laser-blinded when they are on, no matter where I look. It's blindingly bright and visually dark. Idk if it's flicker frequency or light spectrum tbh, but it's that same "hey you shouldn't see it, cause nobo…

> It's blindingly bright and visually dark

Well put. You can easily see flicker if you wave your hand in front of a flickering light source. The trail of your hand will look discrete, rather than continuous as it does with natural lighting.

Re: Simple streetlight hack could protect astronomy from urban light pollution

#20

Post by zoky »

wruza wrote: post #9

Ah, the good old "human eye can't see N Hz" that will make night lights insufferable for those who happen to see it. My grandma has a couple of lightbulbs in her apartment that annoy nobody except me. I feel like laser-blinded when they are on, no matter where I look. It's blindingly bright and visually dark. Idk if it's flicker frequency or light spectrum tbh, but it's that same "hey you shouldn't see it, cause nobo…

Most LEDs already blink at high frequencies to control power output. This idea just synchronizes the blinking.
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