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What If Google Wasn't the Default?

matt-rickard.com

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Re: What If Google Wasn't the Default?

#11

Post by cmehdy »

ralfd wrote: post #6
mrweasel wrote: post #2

The fascination with Apple developing their own search is a little weird. That is not direction we'd want to go in. It seems that we'd be better of if the companies providing search was different from the device maker or operating systems and browser developers.

Yes, it also would misaligns their incentives. I like (love) that Apple is NOT in the advertising business and fewer phd engineers obsess about how they can make me click/view more ads. Maybe Kagi proofs that "search" could also be financed by a premium subscription? Or being a system service which is subsidized like Siri? But I think the ad-model is the most easiest/profitable for search so there is always a pull to…

Doesn't Apple make billions selling ads?

https://appleinsider.com/articles/22/06/15/apple-ad-business...

Re: What If Google Wasn't the Default?

#12

Post by John7149 »

uneekname wrote: post #9

Google is quite sticky indeed. Having tried a few alternatives, I keep coming back to it because it helps me get things done the fastest. It would be relatively easy for Apple to switch their default search engine, but quite difficult to switch it to something better. That said I hope they do, and I hope to see more and better search engine competitors in the future.

Kagi and You.com are way better than Google. Searches are usually within 1 page result unlike Google these days peppered with so many ads that the thing I look for usually at page 10-20 range. The only downside is they are paid service. Google stickyness is because it is free using us as product just like Meta. If you forho it being free, Kagi and You.com are great alternative. DDG is also free but due to way it monetize, it lacks a lot of features to what Kagi and You provides.

Re: What If Google Wasn't the Default?

#13

Post by mrweasel »

jampekka wrote: post #10
mrweasel wrote: post #2

The fascination with Apple developing their own search is a little weird. That is not direction we'd want to go in. It seems that we'd be better of if the companies providing search was different from the device maker or operating systems and browser developers.

Isn't the obvious reason that search is perhaps the best service to sell ads for? And Apple has the benefit that the cult would be extatic to be walled off even tighter.

I don't think Apple search would provide any tangible benefit for Apple users, nor do I hear any regular iPhone users express any desire to have Apple search, they just use the default. It might benefit Apple though, but why spend money on developing search when you can just use Google and get 36% of the revenue.

The whole wanting a 100% Apple ecosystem isn't something I think many a clamoring, except perhaps the few insane hardcore Apple fans. Also currently the alternative is pretty much locking yourself into a Google ecosystem and that's worse.

Re: What If Google Wasn't the Default?

#14

Post by onetokeoverthe »

John7149 wrote: post #12
uneekname wrote: post #9

Google is quite sticky indeed. Having tried a few alternatives, I keep coming back to it because it helps me get things done the fastest. It would be relatively easy for Apple to switch their default search engine, but quite difficult to switch it to something better. That said I hope they do, and I hope to see more and better search engine competitors in the future.

Kagi and You.com are way better than Google. Searches are usually within 1 page result unlike Google these days peppered with so many ads that the thing I look for usually at page 10-20 range. The only downside is they are paid service. Google stickyness is because it is free using us as product just like Meta. If you forho it being free, Kagi and You.com are great alternative. DDG is also free but due to way it mone…

[dead]

Re: What If Google Wasn't the Default?

#15

Post by mrweasel »

cmehdy wrote: post #11
ralfd wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it also would misaligns their incentives. I like (love) that Apple is NOT in the advertising business and fewer phd engineers obsess about how they can make me click/view more ads. Maybe Kagi proofs that "search" could also be financed by a premium subscription? Or being a system service which is subsidized like Siri? But I think the ad-model is the most easiest/profitable for search so there is always a pull to…

Doesn't Apple make billions selling ads? https://appleinsider.com/articles/22/06/15/apple-ad-business...

Somehow yes,... I'm still very interested in how that works. I doubt it's wrong, but I only see ads in the app store, surely that cannot be worth that much, if so: Apple is overcharging big time on those ads.

Re: What If Google Wasn't the Default?

#16

Post by mrweasel »

SllX wrote: post #5
mrweasel wrote: post #2

The fascination with Apple developing their own search is a little weird. That is not direction we'd want to go in. It seems that we'd be better of if the companies providing search was different from the device maker or operating systems and browser developers.

Agreed. Apple has the resources to go into a lot of businesses they don’t necessarily want to be in and they seem happy enough with the Google arrangement. They like to own and control the technologies core to their products, but even they have to draw a line otherwise they’d be building and running their own fabs. Plus Microsoft also has a lot of money and talent and have been in the search business a very long time…

> Bing still sucks

Bing is actually really really good these days, but was it worth the investment? I can understand that Microsoft want some of that R&D money back, but I really wish they would have kept focus on Windows and taken the high road and made it better, more secure, more private and then thrown Bing in Googles face without the ads and tracking, just to prove that "the big boys" make money on selling actual products, not their users. Sadly that wasn't the world we got, at least they resell Bing to more privacy focus companies.

Re: What If Google Wasn't the Default?

#17

Post by vbezhenar »

mrweasel wrote: post #15
cmehdy wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't Apple make billions selling ads? https://appleinsider.com/articles/22/06/15/apple-ad-business...

Somehow yes,... I'm still very interested in how that works. I doubt it's wrong, but I only see ads in the app store, surely that cannot be worth that much, if so: Apple is overcharging big time on those ads.

Apple News, Stocks

Re: What If Google Wasn't the Default?

#18

Post by gmurphy »

cookiengineer wrote: post #4
gmurphy wrote: post #3

FWIW, the initial versions of Chrome did not have Google as the default search provider - the first run experience had a dialog that made you choose between the top three search engines in your locale

All of those choices were bought in and had to pay the most amount for that region to win. Google later even refused to say what the competitors were paying for that rank, so they probably just overbid themselves for a while now. Note that they do this for Android, too.

The search engine choice screen in Android did have a bid model (and complicated EU regulation around it), but the search engine choice screen in the early versions of Chrome were not a bid model - we just felt it was a cool thing to do, but we removed it because practically everyone chose Google anyway and first run screens are bad for retention.

Re: What If Google Wasn't the Default?

#19

Post by scary-size »

> Increased competition in mobile browsers.

Google is going to capture most of Safari's market share with Chrome. Users know Chrome, they use it on desktop, it's convenient to use it on mobile too.

> Refocus on Android.

With the iPhone market being what it is in the US, I don't see Google letting that just go.

> Apple’s Search Engine

Honestly, I think they just might do that. They have been moving the "service" direction for some time.

> Chromium competition

Microsoft would have made competition for Chrome if they didn't drop their own engine in favour of Chromium.

The more cynical view.

Re: What If Google Wasn't the Default?

#20

Post by shiroiuma »

mrweasel wrote: post #16
SllX wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. Apple has the resources to go into a lot of businesses they don’t necessarily want to be in and they seem happy enough with the Google arrangement. They like to own and control the technologies core to their products, but even they have to draw a line otherwise they’d be building and running their own fabs. Plus Microsoft also has a lot of money and talent and have been in the search business a very long time…

> Bing still sucks Bing is actually really really good these days, but was it worth the investment? I can understand that Microsoft want some of that R&D money back, but I really wish they would have kept focus on Windows and taken the high road and made it better, more secure, more private and then thrown Bing in Googles face without the ads and tracking, just to prove that "the big boys" make money on selling actua…

> I really wish they would have kept focus on Windows and taken the high road and made it better, more secure, more private

Why would they do this? It makes zero sense. There would be zero (or really negative) ROI for doing as you suggest here. They already have a near-monopoly on desktop OSes, and these improvements you want aren't going to change that or improve the profits they get from the Windows business. It would have been colossally stupid for them to spend a ton of money making Windows "better" instead of what they did, which was to spend money on other projects, and to inserts ads and other annoyances into Windows while doing the bare minimum and also gutting their QA team. MS isn't losing any money on Windows from security problems, ads, or any other things you might think are problems.

>just to prove that "the big boys" make money on selling actual products, not their users.

Except that wouldn't have worked, because that's not what makes money now. The users have proven they don't care about high-quality products, especially for OSes.

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