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New evidence strongly suggests Indonesia's Gunung Padang is oldest known pyramid

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Re: New evidence strongly suggests Indonesia's Gunung Padang is oldest known pyramid

#11

Junk science. They just scooped up some dirt and did radiocarbon dating. No effort to make sure the sample was in context (e.g. from a layer above construction activity, or a cooking fire or something). So some dirt in the vicinity of the pyramid is 20k years old. That says absolutely nothing of value.

I would advise reading the study as it provides much more information, including stratigraphic profiles of 4 different layers, maps/images of the trenches, borehole data, and various remote sensing surveys.

Unit 1 (surface): 2,000-1000BC Unit 2 : 6,000-5000 BC Unit 3: 24,000-14,000BC Unit 4: NO data

Unit 2 is clearly artificial and represents a construction layer. It has pieces of cut columnar basalt aligned parallel to the ground -- which does not occur naturally, so it is undisputedly artificial.

The soil filled on top of Unit 2 contains homogenous radiocarbon dates and no weathering indicating it was placed all at the same time.

They unit 3 layer contains weathered rounded boulders stacked on top of each other -- this type of weathering normally occurs in a stream an their presence on top of a hill does seem to indicate they were placed there. They also seem to be placed into structures forming a wall. While it is less obviously artificial than unit 2 -- they still provide some compelling evidence that it is indeed artificial.

They claim unit 4 is a natural andesite lava flow that has been "sculpted", but I don't see any evidence to back up that particular claim in the paper, unless i missed it.

TLDR: they did exactly what you mentioned -- took samples from above / below / inside various construction layers, and the dates match the stratigraphic context.... It wasn't just 'scooped up in the vicinity of the pyramid.

I agree given the nature of their claims, it would be ideal if they included another dating method like OSL to go along with the radiocarbon dates, but the radiocarbon dates themselves are not as half-hazard as you make them out to be.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/arp.1912

Re: New evidence strongly suggests Indonesia's Gunung Padang is oldest known pyramid

#13
Wikipedia has information about this. Essentially the topic of the age, as put forth by the author of this article, is considered "fringe". Doesn't mean this is outright untrue but it seems that, aside from the authors of this piece, the age of Gunung Padang is very much not a settled matter and the information contained in the above link is the fringe theory that is in doubt.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunung_Padang

Re: New evidence strongly suggests Indonesia's Gunung Padang is oldest known pyramid

#15
This is a pretty extraordinary claim:

> The oldest construction, Unit 4, likely originated as a natural lava hill before being sculpted and then architecturally enveloped during the last glacial period between 25 000 and 14 000 BCE.

Evidence for ‘sculpted and architecturally enveloped’ seems spotty though, and it’s also an interesting choice of words that carefully avoids saying anything was ‘constructed’

Re: New evidence strongly suggests Indonesia's Gunung Padang is oldest known pyramid

#16
The use of language like "oldest pyramid in the world" seems a bit misleading as this structure has been built in several layers around a pre-existing volcanic core. As a feat of engineering it is not directly comparable with the Egyptian or Mesoamerican pyramids. It skipped not only the difficult work of building the core, but also potentially the need for architectural planning and large, organized work crews.

Re: New evidence strongly suggests Indonesia's Gunung Padang is oldest known pyramid

#17
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there any way that someone now can deliberately add a verifiable date to an object/structure/etc.? Something that a million plus years from now would objectively demonstrate the age to a researcher of the future. Considering the strong tendency to disregard old written historical records people of the future will likely face a similar dilemma attempting to accurately date any ruins of our present day buildings.

Maybe you could engrave the relative positions of some nearby stars onto a plaque or something like that? Ceramic lasts basically forever, right? Maybe you wouldn’t get “Tuesday, Deceduary 110th 2132” level of precision but you could perhaps get something pretty precise with the right choice of stars?

We know what the positions of those stars were back into the ancient past and forwards into the distant future. We can engrave positions corresponding to any date we like onto such an object. It provides no proof of date.

Re: New evidence strongly suggests Indonesia's Gunung Padang is oldest known pyramid

#18

Graham Hancock will be pleased.

Right, as noted in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38186510, this is not news. This writeup is covering activity from 2011 - 2015...

“The integrated surveys at Gunung Padang were conducted for 3 years, from November 2011 to October 2014...”

... completed so long ago it served as an episode in last year's Netflix documentary “Ancient Apocalypse”, aka “the most dangerous show on Netflix”:

https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2022/nov/23/ancient...

Re: New evidence strongly suggests Indonesia's Gunung Padang is oldest known pyramid

#19
post #13

Wikipedia has information about this. Essentially the topic of the age, as put forth by the author of this article, is considered "fringe". Doesn't mean this is outright untrue but it seems that, aside from the authors of this piece, the age of Gunung Padang is very much not a settled matter and the information contained in the above link is the fringe theory that is in doubt. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunung_Pad…

It looks like this wikipedia article has not been updated since the publication of their work. The wikipedia article mentions the work is unpublished multiple times. Potentially, it has changed the view on this dating.

Re: New evidence strongly suggests Indonesia's Gunung Padang is oldest known pyramid

#20
post #12

If this finding is accurate, this pyramid is 27,000 years old. 20,000 years older than pyramids of Egypt. Older than Göpekli Tepe.

We have 8,000 years of continuous history, and just barely. We pretend this is linear improvements of human coordination where we just got around to being cognitive enough for anything we do sometime over the last 700 years. I reject this idea completely.

I’m personally not surprised if there are other 8,000 year periods of human coordination and stability to pursue complex ideas. Across, what, now 200,000 years?

I can see the limitations of collecting the evidence involved in perceiving that, and I dont need to wait around for that to believe it. Preteens doing graffiti in caves have preserved art. I dont think it is any indication of human progression at that point in time.

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