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Electric mountain: Power station that shows the beauty of infrastructure

theguardian.com

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Re: Electric mountain: Power station that shows the beauty of infrastructure

#11

Post by toomuchtodo »

londons_explore wrote: post #3

Not stated in the article: There are very few places in the world with two large lakes, separated by a lot of height and not much distance. Wherever that happens, it is probably financially a good idea to build one of these. But that geography is really rather rare, so the rest of the world will probably have to use gas peaker plants (environment-killing) or battery storage (expensive).

Keep an eye on Australia, Snowy 2 (whose costs are blowing out) [1], and battery uptake [2]. Based on cost decline curves of lithium scale utility storage, batteries will be cheaper by the time Snowy is commissioned. Battery manufacturing is ramping because every automaker is being forced to electrify, Tesla is preparing to build a second Megafactory factory for battery storage in China [3], and batteries can be installed anywhere.

Batteries can also provide grid support (frequency and voltage support when transmission or generators trip) and can be grid forming now; instead of having to follow the grid, they can drive grid health, including black start [4] when the grid is down. In South Australia, a new battery storage facility has recently come online and is in testing to enable AEMO, the grid operator, to turn down the requirement for ~70MW of constant fossil gas generation for grid services [5].

[1] https://reneweconomy.com.au/snowy-2-much-how-can-a-2-2gw-wat... ("This is the fourth time Snowy 2.0’s cost has been reset – from $2 billion in 2017, to $3.8-$4.5 billion later that year, to $5.1 billion in 2019, to $5.9 billion in 2020, to $12 billion now (2023).")

[2] https://www.energy-storage.news/global-bess-deployments-to-e... ("Global BESS deployments to exceed 400GWh annually by 2030, says Rystad Energy")

[3] https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-china-megafactory-constructi... ("Tesla’s estimated initial production capacity for the China-based Megapack factory is 10,000 units per year or about 40GWh.") [My note: This is equal to their existing capacity in Lathrop, California]

[4] https://www.nrel.gov/grid/black-start.html

[5] https://opennem.org.au/facilities/sa1/?selected=TIB&tech=bat... ("Torrens Island BESS")

Re: Electric mountain: Power station that shows the beauty of infrastructure

#12

Post by sambeau »

eppp wrote: post #9
londons_explore wrote: post #3

Not stated in the article: There are very few places in the world with two large lakes, separated by a lot of height and not much distance. Wherever that happens, it is probably financially a good idea to build one of these. But that geography is really rather rare, so the rest of the world will probably have to use gas peaker plants (environment-killing) or battery storage (expensive).

There are lots of places where such things can be built though. TVA's Raccoon Mountain is an example. https://www.tva.com/energy/our-power-system/hydroelectric/ra... There is water at the base of a lot of mountains, just knock the top off and build a lake.

There’s really not a lot of point these days. Batteries can be used for load balancing and pump-storage is very inefficient.

Re: Electric mountain: Power station that shows the beauty of infrastructure

#13

Post by uptownJimmy »

Though not as technologically impressive, there are quite a few rather "simple" little hydroelectric dams tucked back in the Allegheny Mountains of the eastern USA. They are a marvel to see, worth seeking out if you are driving anywhere near them.

Cheoah Dam is on the infamous Tail of the Dragon in TN, and there's a spot where you can pull over and see the whole thing below, it's such an inspiring thing.

Re: Electric mountain: Power station that shows the beauty of infrastructure

#14

Post by eppp »

sambeau wrote: post #12
eppp wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are lots of places where such things can be built though. TVA's Raccoon Mountain is an example. https://www.tva.com/energy/our-power-system/hydroelectric/ra... There is water at the base of a lot of mountains, just knock the top off and build a lake.

There’s really not a lot of point these days. Batteries can be used for load balancing and pump-storage is very inefficient.

We should do all of it at the same time. Diversity and over provisioning is a way to have options and redundancy.

Re: Electric mountain: Power station that shows the beauty of infrastructure

#15

Post by uticus »

> So, after all those television-watching Britons go to bed, Dinorwig’s generators are run backwards.

> It’s a remarkably efficient process, with about 75% of the energy available for reuse.

Not an (hardware) engineer, so wondering: are turbines typically efficient running both ways? Or would a turbine in this scenario have tradeoffs compared to turbines that are designed for running in one direction only?

The best I can come up with from the comfort of my armchair is that straight gears are typically equally efficient in either rotating direction, but often gears with angled teeth are used when one rotating direction is primary.

Re: Electric mountain: Power station that shows the beauty of infrastructure

#16

Post by LastTrain »

Dachande663 wrote: post #5

I had the luck to visit this as a child, before all the tourist side of it was shut down. I remember taking the bus past the giant turbine hall. A few facts I can remember: 1. Carol Vorderman did a lot of the engineering calculations, before she started on Countdown (probably only relevant to the UK lot). 2. They couldn't run powerlines from the facility to the grid as it's an AONB so they had to run them underground…

AONB = Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty

Re: Electric mountain: Power station that shows the beauty of infrastructure

#17

Post by londons_explore »

sambeau wrote: post #12
eppp wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are lots of places where such things can be built though. TVA's Raccoon Mountain is an example. https://www.tva.com/energy/our-power-system/hydroelectric/ra... There is water at the base of a lot of mountains, just knock the top off and build a lake.

There’s really not a lot of point these days. Batteries can be used for load balancing and pump-storage is very inefficient.

Moss Landing, CA is the worlds largest battery. It is 3.0GWh, and has been operating 2 months.

However, Dinorwig, UK is far larger at 9.1 GWh, and is 40 years old.

Re: Electric mountain: Power station that shows the beauty of infrastructure

#18

Post by Mistletoe »

Amorymeltzer wrote: post #8

I think it was someone on the Volts podcast[1], either David Roberts or a guest, who made the point (I'm paraphrasing) that one of the most helpful things a regular person can do is start to think of solar arrays or windmills as beautiful; if building them isn't "climate but eyesore" but rather a "climate and beauty" proposition, they are much more likely to get built. 1: https://www.volts.wtf

When I drive through Oklahoma, Texas, New Mexico, etc. I think windmills are quite beautiful. On the plains they are the only thing to look at and are quite inspiring.

They look like this: https://www.istockphoto.com/photos/oklahoma-wind-energy-turb...

Re: Electric mountain: Power station that shows the beauty of infrastructure

#19

Post by toomuchtodo »

londons_explore wrote: post #17
sambeau wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s really not a lot of point these days. Batteries can be used for load balancing and pump-storage is very inefficient.

Moss Landing, CA is the worlds largest battery. It is 3.0GWh, and has been operating 2 months. However, Dinorwig, UK is far larger at 9.1 GWh, and is 40 years old.

For comparison, you could build a replacement for Dinorwig with less than 1 quarter (12 weeks) of Tesla's single Megafactory annual output, and have it installed in less than a year, in any geography (assuming you're ready to run copper and pour slabs; storage enclosures can be installed in parallel, it's trucks, cranes, and human labor bolting them down).

Timelines go down as battery manufacturing scales up. TBMs and mountain cutting are not getting faster or cheaper.

Re: Electric mountain: Power station that shows the beauty of infrastructure

#20

Post by adhesive_wombat »

uticus wrote: post #15

> So, after all those television-watching Britons go to bed, Dinorwig’s generators are run backwards. > It’s a remarkably efficient process, with about 75% of the energy available for reuse. Not an (hardware) engineer, so wondering: are turbines typically efficient running both ways? Or would a turbine in this scenario have tradeoffs compared to turbines that are designed for running in one direction only? The best I…

The Dinorwig turbines are (like most hydro plants) Francis turbines. The blade still have an angle. Like a PC case fan, the angle is the same direction whether or not the turbine is "braking" or "pumping". But there very likely are tradeoffs in the turbine design to keep both functions relatively efficient.

There are also what are called ternary sets, which are the generator turbine, the torque converter (a massive clutch) and a pump. A good diagram in here: https://voith.com/corp-en/11_06_Broschuere-Pumped-storage_ei.... These are used at another Welsh pumped storage station: Ffestiniog.

Helical gears (the ones with angled teeth) are used not because one direction is better than the other, but because they have a larger contact area and allow larger forces for a given tooth size (module) and lower vibration because multiple teeth mesh at any time rather than one-by-one. The angle can go either way, and, indeed, can go both ways on one gear (a herringbone gear) to nullify the axial loading.

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