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Nitrogen electroreduction with almost 100% current-to-ammonia efficiency (2022)

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Re: Nitrogen electroreduction with almost 100% current-to-ammonia efficiency (2022)

#11

Post by pfdietz »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #4

This would be a gigantic breakthrough if true and scalable, correct? Most ammonia production for fertilizer currently uses natural gas, and of clean sources of electricity with such a high yield of ammonia production would have a huge worldwide impact. So is there something I'm missing?

Not if the energy efficiency were poor, compared to electrolytic hydrogen into a conventional Haber-Bosch process. And remember hydrogen is very storable, so that process could buffer renewable intermittency and keep the H-B plant running continuously. Electrolyzers are getting cheap.

Re: Nitrogen electroreduction with almost 100% current-to-ammonia efficiency (2022)

#13

Post by jtbayly »

RetroTechie wrote: post #7
londons_explore wrote: post #2

Big if true... This could enable fertilizer production with no CO2 emissions. The numbers in the paper suggest that it might prove cheaper than natural gas based production which is common today. Fertilizer production is 2.1% of all CO2 emissions right now.

Not just fertilizer: "In addition to its use in the fertilizer and chemical industries, ammonia is currently seen as a potential replacement for carbon-based fuels and as a carrier for worldwide transportation of renewable energy." Long-term grid storage? Publication: 22 July 2022 Anyone know if maybe some pilot / small scale production facility has been set up in the mean time? I've read about a farm that produced i…

Farms have been producing their own fertilizer for centuries. ;-)

Re: Nitrogen electroreduction with almost 100% current-to-ammonia efficiency (2022)

#14

Post by tgsovlerkhgsel »

HPsquared wrote: post #3

What does the term "current-to-ammonia efficiency" mean here? I imagine it would refer to the specificity of the reaction, i.e. that 99% of the electrons passing through the system are used in the main reaction, and The abstract doesn't go into detail on energy efficiency and a comparison to the old method using gas. For instance, would this method result in less CO2 emissions using regular grid electricity, or would…

My naive interpretation would be "almost 100% of the energy put into the process gets chemically stored in the ammonia".

Re: Nitrogen electroreduction with almost 100% current-to-ammonia efficiency (2022)

#15

Post by dexwiz »

fbdab103 wrote: post #8
RetroTechie wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not just fertilizer: "In addition to its use in the fertilizer and chemical industries, ammonia is currently seen as a potential replacement for carbon-based fuels and as a carrier for worldwide transportation of renewable energy." Long-term grid storage? Publication: 22 July 2022 Anyone know if maybe some pilot / small scale production facility has been set up in the mean time? I've read about a farm that produced i…

Are there power plants today that burn ammonia directly? If not, is it a simple/cheap enough conversion?

Not sure if they are today, but Toyota is putting a lot of effort into ammonia turbines. Also ammonia can be fired with coal or natural gas in existing setups. The main issue is neutralization of NOx exhaust.

Re: Nitrogen electroreduction with almost 100% current-to-ammonia efficiency (2022)

#16

Post by conradev »

londons_explore wrote: post #2

Big if true... This could enable fertilizer production with no CO2 emissions. The numbers in the paper suggest that it might prove cheaper than natural gas based production which is common today. Fertilizer production is 2.1% of all CO2 emissions right now.

It’s big enough and true enough for entrepreneurs – Nitricity is building shipping container-sized fertilizer factories

Re: Nitrogen electroreduction with almost 100% current-to-ammonia efficiency (2022)

#17

Post by multiplegeorges »

jtbayly wrote: post #13
RetroTechie wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not just fertilizer: "In addition to its use in the fertilizer and chemical industries, ammonia is currently seen as a potential replacement for carbon-based fuels and as a carrier for worldwide transportation of renewable energy." Long-term grid storage? Publication: 22 July 2022 Anyone know if maybe some pilot / small scale production facility has been set up in the mean time? I've read about a farm that produced i…

Farms have been producing their own fertilizer for centuries. ;-)

Millenia, even.

Re: Nitrogen electroreduction with almost 100% current-to-ammonia efficiency (2022)

#18

Post by cranky908canuck »

HPsquared wrote: post #3

What does the term "current-to-ammonia efficiency" mean here? I imagine it would refer to the specificity of the reaction, i.e. that 99% of the electrons passing through the system are used in the main reaction, and The abstract doesn't go into detail on energy efficiency and a comparison to the old method using gas. For instance, would this method result in less CO2 emissions using regular grid electricity, or would…

>> ... would this method result in less CO2 emissions using regular grid >> electricity, or would it need to be 100% low-carbon electricity? ...

Who cares? This is about electricity to ammonia.

Given: a very efficient way to make ammonia (as an energy store) using electricity, this becomes a storage mechanism. So then, make ammonia and money whenever the grid is in a 'pay to take power' state, and (up to a point) even if you have to pay. End source is irrelevant.

Alternate process: run a solar farm, produce ammonia whenever that's cheaper than paying someone to take the power (or curtail), then sell the stored power when prices are high. Or, sell the ammonia directly.

Re: Nitrogen electroreduction with almost 100% current-to-ammonia efficiency (2022)

#19

Post by toomuchtodo »

fbdab103 wrote: post #8
RetroTechie wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not just fertilizer: "In addition to its use in the fertilizer and chemical industries, ammonia is currently seen as a potential replacement for carbon-based fuels and as a carrier for worldwide transportation of renewable energy." Long-term grid storage? Publication: 22 July 2022 Anyone know if maybe some pilot / small scale production facility has been set up in the mean time? I've read about a farm that produced i…

Are there power plants today that burn ammonia directly? If not, is it a simple/cheap enough conversion?

While not in mass production, there is strong interest from the marine shipping industry. It can be produced near ports, and meets the storage and combustion engine constraints (similar to diesel) of the use case.

https://spectrum.ieee.org/why-the-shipping-industry-is-betti...

https://www.wartsila.com/media/news/30-06-2020-world-s-first...

https://www.lr.org/en/about-us/press-listing/press-release/i...

https://www.ammoniaenergy.org/articles/maritime-fuel-mix-cou...

Re: Nitrogen electroreduction with almost 100% current-to-ammonia efficiency (2022)

#20

Post by Superfluidity »

credit_guy wrote: post #6
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #4

This would be a gigantic breakthrough if true and scalable, correct? Most ammonia production for fertilizer currently uses natural gas, and of clean sources of electricity with such a high yield of ammonia production would have a huge worldwide impact. So is there something I'm missing?

The scalable part is going to be difficult though. This is not all that different from the production of hydrogen. Hydrogen is most economically produced from natural gas nowadays. You can produce it from water, with (just like here) an almost 100% current-to-hydrogen efficiency. But it's still twice as expensive, if not more.

Electrolysis of water is 70–80% efficient (a 20–30% conversion loss) while steam reforming of natural gas has a thermal efficiency between 70 and 85%. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_production#:~:text=....
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