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As Digital Nomads Flock to Lisbon, Portugal's Youth Are Leaving in Droves

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Re: As Digital Nomads Flock to Lisbon, Portugal's Youth Are Leaving in Droves

#11

Post by lm28469 »

jmyeet wrote: post #8

Expats can be helpful to a country like Portugal but it has to be done correctly. And of course it hasn't. What Portugal needs to do is: 1. Ban Airbnb and other short-term housing other than renting out a room in your house ; 2. Provide a huge stock of social housing, meaning housing at an affordable price only available to natives; and 3. Restrict foreign ownership of huge swathes of the country. This could be as si…

Expats and digital nomads aren't the same thing.

I'm an expat but I work locally for a local company with local wages like most people around me

The problem is working for foreign company which pays a salary that is way above what your peers live with, it creates insane inequalities.

One month of a good tech salary is one year of min wage in Portugal

Re: As Digital Nomads Flock to Lisbon, Portugal's Youth Are Leaving in Droves

#12

Post by quonn »

jmyeet wrote: post #8

Expats can be helpful to a country like Portugal but it has to be done correctly. And of course it hasn't. What Portugal needs to do is: 1. Ban Airbnb and other short-term housing other than renting out a room in your house ; 2. Provide a huge stock of social housing, meaning housing at an affordable price only available to natives; and 3. Restrict foreign ownership of huge swathes of the country. This could be as si…

> 3. Restrict foreign ownership of huge swathes of the country. This could be as simple as "new construction only".

This will make the problem worse as the Portuguese will complain that the foreigners own the beautiful modern buildings.

Additionally it‘s important to keep in mind that this is not feasible for EU countries with the four freedoms. It would be like Florida banning ownership of existing houses for Californians.

(1) would totally kill the Portuguese tourism industry.

(2) is reasonable and they are already doing it - but not sufficiently.

I have a better idea: Tax the nomads with a rate that matches typical tax rates (around 30-40% and waive the crippling social security if health insurance is covered from abroad, not the excessive Portuguese taxes of 53% + 35% social security for a total of 88% on a salary of > 80.000. Nomads are fully exempted because nobody would be willing to pay that much). It would bring more than enough money into the country for house construction.

Re: As Digital Nomads Flock to Lisbon, Portugal's Youth Are Leaving in Droves

#13

Post by cultofmetatron »

somewhereoutth wrote: post #3

In summary, salaries need to rise (and they are), and the tax system needs to raise its thresholds accordingly (and it hasn't yet?). Note that the increase in housing costs has been largely driven by AirBnB etc, like much of the more desirable to tourists parts of Europe. Digital nomads (working remotely, almost by definition, and not getting paid that much in the grand scheme of things, again almost by definition) a…

> Digital nomads (working remotely, almost by definition, and not getting paid that much in the grand scheme of things

what are you talking about?? to be a digital nomad, you have to spend significantly more to sustain traveling and the added expenses of short term rentals. I could cut my costs in half if I just stayed in one spot for a few months. A typical apartment is going to cost half of an equivalent airbnb and the cost of equipping a kitchen will be offset very quickly from the savings of being able to shop at supermarkets and preparing your food at home.

Re: As Digital Nomads Flock to Lisbon, Portugal's Youth Are Leaving in Droves

#14

Post by quonn »

lm28469 wrote: post #11
jmyeet wrote: post #8

Expats can be helpful to a country like Portugal but it has to be done correctly. And of course it hasn't. What Portugal needs to do is: 1. Ban Airbnb and other short-term housing other than renting out a room in your house ; 2. Provide a huge stock of social housing, meaning housing at an affordable price only available to natives; and 3. Restrict foreign ownership of huge swathes of the country. This could be as si…

Expats and digital nomads aren't the same thing. I'm an expat but I work locally for a local company with local wages like most people around me The problem is working for foreign company which pays a salary that is way above what your peers live with, it creates insane inequalities. One month of a good tech salary is one year of min wage in Portugal

But this inequality exists everywhere, it‘s just not a year of salary but only half a year.

Re: As Digital Nomads Flock to Lisbon, Portugal's Youth Are Leaving in Droves

#16

Post by quonn »

IG_Semmelweiss wrote: post #10

I believe Portugal was about to end the golden visa. Can someone expand on this topic? Also, is it true to say the golden visa is not attractive to US citizens? Finally, which foreign citize s benefit the most from the Portugal golden visa?

Yes. It has ended the Golden Visa and also the NHR tax exemption scheme.

It may take some time to become law, but some time next year everything will be gone.

Re: As Digital Nomads Flock to Lisbon, Portugal's Youth Are Leaving in Droves

#17

Post by seydor »

lm28469 wrote: post #4
somewhereoutth wrote: post #3

In summary, salaries need to rise (and they are), and the tax system needs to raise its thresholds accordingly (and it hasn't yet?). Note that the increase in housing costs has been largely driven by AirBnB etc, like much of the more desirable to tourists parts of Europe. Digital nomads (working remotely, almost by definition, and not getting paid that much in the grand scheme of things, again almost by definition) a…

> Digital nomads (working remotely, almost by definition, and not getting paid that much in the grand scheme of things, again almost by definition) a I don't think you know what you're talking about. Living in Portugal while remotely working for any semi decent tech company puts you in the top 10% earners easily

"digital nomads" are normally looking for location arbitrage, so they are not high earners, normally cheap-skates. Remote workers might be more likely to create inequality, but seriously how many are they? If they create price pressure then it means there s very little housing stock in the first place.

Re: As Digital Nomads Flock to Lisbon, Portugal's Youth Are Leaving in Droves

#18

Post by quonn »

mcntsh wrote: post #15

What a hilariously short-sighted policy from Portugal. Offer visas for rich remote workers and also exempt them from contributing to health system, and give them huge tax discounts. It's like the Portuguese government actually hates its citizens.

As I wrote elsewhere, paying into the social security in Portugal with a salary of 80.000 Euros means paying 88% in taxes and social security.

Do you think that is reasonable?

Additionally everyone I know has their own insurance and pays for all of their health bills. And that‘s only for urgent things, planned surgeries are usually done in the home country anyway.

Re: As Digital Nomads Flock to Lisbon, Portugal's Youth Are Leaving in Droves

#19

Post by seydor »

cultofmetatron wrote: post #13
somewhereoutth wrote: post #3

In summary, salaries need to rise (and they are), and the tax system needs to raise its thresholds accordingly (and it hasn't yet?). Note that the increase in housing costs has been largely driven by AirBnB etc, like much of the more desirable to tourists parts of Europe. Digital nomads (working remotely, almost by definition, and not getting paid that much in the grand scheme of things, again almost by definition) a…

> Digital nomads (working remotely, almost by definition, and not getting paid that much in the grand scheme of things what are you talking about?? to be a digital nomad, you have to spend significantly more to sustain traveling and the added expenses of short term rentals. I could cut my costs in half if I just stayed in one spot for a few months. A typical apartment is going to cost half of an equivalent airbnb and…

> you have to spend significantly more to sustain traveling and the added expenses of short term rentals

my understanding is that digital nomads pay LESS than they would in their home country by choosing cheap CoL countries

Re: As Digital Nomads Flock to Lisbon, Portugal's Youth Are Leaving in Droves

#20

Post by pydry »

mcntsh wrote: post #15

What a hilariously short-sighted policy from Portugal. Offer visas for rich remote workers and also exempt them from contributing to health system, and give them huge tax discounts. It's like the Portuguese government actually hates its citizens.

Portugal isnt unique in having a government dominated by property owners who are keen to push up rents. Most of the west does.
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